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92X Performance Thumb Safety


robertg5322
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If this is covered somewhere else, my apologies, I couldn't find it.

 

Is it allowed to file the thumb safety levers on a 92X Performance to fit inside the Production Gun box?

 

The USPSA Production Gun List (https://uspsa.org/productionlist/download)says: 

 

"Some models may not fit the box with ambi safeties, however one safety may be removed for compliance and must remain off for competition."

 

No mention of altering/modifying the safety to get it to fit. 

 

Thanks.

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1 minute ago, robertg5322 said:

Yeah got that, still too wide.

 

 

Really? Good to know because I was waiting for a Beretta store sale to pick them up but now I guess I won't. Well, maybe I would so I could grind it down and not feel bad about ruining my stock safeties.

 

It seems really crazy and dumb that Beretta didn't think about USPSA at all in making the 92x perf. They only thought about IPSC, which has no Production box, but does have a Standard box for some reason. 

Edited by Twinkie
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Just now, Twinkie said:

 

Really? Good to know because I was waiting for a Beretta store sale to pick them up but now I guess I won't. Well, maybe I would so I could grind it down and not feel bad about ruining my stock safeties.

Exactly why I spent the money. You have to grind them pretty flat. 

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3 minutes ago, robertg5322 said:

Exactly why I spent the money. You have to grind them pretty flat. 

 

Since you've taken them apart, can you just leave the right side safety off without leaving a hole? Would it fit the box? That might be the easiest option for a major.

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11 hours ago, Twinkie said:

 

Since you've taken them apart, can you just leave the right side safety off without leaving a hole? Would it fit the box? That might be the easiest option for a major.

My OCD would have an issue with that. 

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24 minutes ago, robertg5322 said:

My OCD would have an issue with that. 

 

Well, I was just wondering as to it having a huge hole or something in the side. Will it function do you think without the right side lever?

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37 minutes ago, Twinkie said:

 

Well, I was just wondering as to it having a huge hole or something in the side. Will it function do you think without the right side lever?

It should. The right side lever is the one that has the post running through the slide. 

 

Not a good option, check out from the 10:30 point in this video.

 

 

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From the Director of NROI.

 

My inquiry:

 

Muchos gracias Sir. I appreciate the quick response.
 
With regard to the Beretta 92X Performance, on mine I have the smallest thumb safeties Beretta sells, they're still way too wide. 

 

I've been told that grinding/filing/modifying them is legal (not by official sources, so color me skeptical), but what gives me pause is Appendix D4, 21.6 & 22. There's nothing that specifically allows altering/filing/grinding of thumb safety levers, and how the presence of ground/filed/altered levers will be treated at anything other than a club level match is a concern when I have no documentation of the legality of the modification, and Per Special Note 5 at the bottom of Appendix D4 (Emphasis by capitalization from Appendix D4) it would appear that altering/griding/modifying the thumb safeties is not an approved practice: 

 

5. UNLESS a modification is SPECIFICALLY authorized in the rules or SPECIFICALLY
authorized in an official, published NROI interpretation, it is considered a PROHIBITED
MODIFICATION.

 

  Appendix D4;  

21.6
Exchange of minor EXTERNAL components Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, pins, extractors, magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties, triggers, hammers, bushings, and ejectors MAY be replaced with OFM or aftermarket parts.
Exchange of OFM parts between different models of Production approved guns is allowed.
 
22
Specifically prohibited modifications and features Please note that the absence of an item in the list of prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to mean a modification is allowed.
A modification is only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules clause or interpretation that specifically declares that it is allowed in the Division.
Removing or disabling firing-pin blocks or any other factory safety mechanism in
Production division is specifically prohibited.
 
Again, thanks for the quick response to my previous inquiry, and thanks for the work that you do at NROI.
 
Response:

 

Troy McManus

4:12 PM (5 minutes ago)
 
 
cleardot.gif
cleardot.gif
to me
 
 
You can trim them down or replace them with smaller versions without penalty.
 
Troy
 
Troy McManus
Director, National Range Officers Institute
"I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery".  Thomas Jefferson
Audemus jura nostra defendere
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On 3/23/2021 at 7:22 PM, robertg5322 said:

From the Director of NROI.

 

My inquiry:

 

Muchos gracias Sir. I appreciate the quick response.
 
With regard to the Beretta 92X Performance, on mine I have the smallest thumb safeties Beretta sells, they're still way too wide. 

 

I've been told that grinding/filing/modifying them is legal (not by official sources, so color me skeptical), but what gives me pause is Appendix D4, 21.6 & 22. There's nothing that specifically allows altering/filing/grinding of thumb safety levers, and how the presence of ground/filed/altered levers will be treated at anything other than a club level match is a concern when I have no documentation of the legality of the modification, and Per Special Note 5 at the bottom of Appendix D4 (Emphasis by capitalization from Appendix D4) it would appear that altering/griding/modifying the thumb safeties is not an approved practice: 

 

5. UNLESS a modification is SPECIFICALLY authorized in the rules or SPECIFICALLY
authorized in an official, published NROI interpretation, it is considered a PROHIBITED
MODIFICATION.

 

  Appendix D4;  

21.6
Exchange of minor EXTERNAL components Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, pins, extractors, magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties, triggers, hammers, bushings, and ejectors MAY be replaced with OFM or aftermarket parts.
Exchange of OFM parts between different models of Production approved guns is allowed.
 
22
Specifically prohibited modifications and features Please note that the absence of an item in the list of prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to mean a modification is allowed.
A modification is only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules clause or interpretation that specifically declares that it is allowed in the Division.
Removing or disabling firing-pin blocks or any other factory safety mechanism in
Production division is specifically prohibited.
 
Again, thanks for the quick response to my previous inquiry, and thanks for the work that you do at NROI.
 
Response:

 

Troy McManus

4:12 PM (5 minutes ago)
 
 
cleardot.gif
cleardot.gif
to me
 
 
You can trim them down or replace them with smaller versions without penalty.
 
Troy
 
Troy McManus
Director, National Range Officers Institute
"I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery".  Thomas Jefferson
Audemus jura nostra defendere

 

Is this considered an official, published NROI interpretation?

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6 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Is this considered an official, published NROI interpretation?

Don't know. I figure I'll just print the e mail, carry it in my range bag and check with the match director of any other than club level match I shoot at before the match. If they say no, and can't be persuaded to see the light, I'll shoot my backup gun, a regular Brigadier. Not ideal, but that's life 

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5 hours ago, robertg5322 said:

Don't know. I figure I'll just print the e mail, carry it in my range bag and check with the match director of any other than club level match I shoot at before the match. If they say no, and can't be persuaded to see the light, I'll shoot my backup gun, a regular Brigadier. Not ideal, but that's life 

There's no "persuaded to see the light" because there is no light.  An e-mail, no matter who it is from, is not a published NROI interpretation.

 

Those are here: https://uspsa.org/nroi/rulings

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10 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

There's no "persuaded to see the light" because there is no light.  An e-mail, no matter who it is from, is not a published NROI interpretation.

 

Those are here: https://uspsa.org/nroi/rulings

Yes, I know that. I didn't realize your question was rhetorical.

 

Hopefully my correspondence with the Director turns the e mail into a ruling. Kind of why I cited Appendix D4 from the rulebook in my e mail to him.

 

And if not, I don't shoot many major matches anyway, so not really a big deal for me. 

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16 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Well you know what they say: money talks and bulls#!t walks.

If DNROI is going to say the modification is legal, he should formalize it (and maybe he is, what do I know?). Shouldn't require pressure from Beretta or anyone else (and I'm not saying it will require outside pressure), just him saying to me via e mail that it is so should start the process (and this may well be the case). 

 

And Beretta, the rulebook is available for anyone to download, how about making your guns designed for USPSA/IPSC Production legal in USPSA and IPSC? Or offering a set of safeties that are flat, like the CZ Shadow safeties? FFS, they sell the the larger and smaller than what comes with the gun for $150.00/set, there's no reason to not make one more set that are flat, and make money selling them, or better yet, providing them with the gun. And while I'm on my soapbox, how about a nice set of grips that give the gun the classic grip profile for those of us who are not fans of the Vertec grip. Just sayin'...

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58 minutes ago, robertg5322 said:

If DNROI is going to say the modification is legal, he should formalize it (and maybe he is, what do I know?). Shouldn't require pressure from Beretta or anyone else (and I'm not saying it will require outside pressure), just him saying to me via e mail that it is so should start the process (and this may well be the case). 

 

And Beretta, the rulebook is available for anyone to download, how about making your guns designed for USPSA/IPSC Production legal in USPSA and IPSC? Or offering a set of safeties that are flat, like the CZ Shadow safeties? FFS, they sell the the larger and smaller than what comes with the gun for $150.00/set, there's no reason to not make one more set that are flat, and make money selling them, or better yet, providing them with the gun. And while I'm on my soapbox, how about a nice set of grips that give the gun the classic grip profile for those of us who are not fans of the Vertec grip. Just sayin'...

Can't disagree with anything you've said

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1 minute ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Can't disagree with anything you've said

Not looking for an argument, so that's a good thing.

 

Now if we could get a movement started to get better options for a classic grip module, that'd be great...

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22 hours ago, robertg5322 said:

Not looking for an argument, so that's a good thing.

 

Now if we could get a movement started to get better options for a classic grip module, that'd be great...

 

Doesn't the Hogue grip that comes with the M9A3 fit?  That puts a hump on the back of the Vetrtex grip and makes it hold just like a regular 92

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17 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Doesn't the Hogue grip that comes with the M9A3 fit?  That puts a hump on the back of the Vetrtex grip and makes it hold just like a regular 92

I doubt it. The grip on the Performance is inset into the gripframe and there's a band of steela round the bottom that isn't covered by the grip panel, the A3 grip goes all the way to the bottom. Additionally the Performance grip frame is flat while the standard Beretta frames have a step at the rear part of the grip frame. 

 

There's also the thumb safety cutouts to deal with, and I'm not even sure if the grip screws will line up. df

 

My descriptions leave a lot to be desired, these videos show the grip frames and the differences I'm talking about.

 

Go to 2:51 on this for the Performance grip frame

 

 

 

The intro pic shows the standard aluminum Beretta grip frame, you can go to 2:03 in the video to see more.

 

 

Ultimately it's probably not an easy fix unless some enterprising grip manufacturer wants to get in the act. 

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On 3/26/2021 at 5:42 PM, robertg5322 said:

Seeing how Beretta is going to sponsor the 2021 Low Cap Nationals, it'd probably be a good idea to get this cleared up so their flagship gun can actually be seen at the match.

 

https://uspsa.org/announcement/736

 

 

Lol...Beretta actually do something😆.  The APX has been out for at least 2 years and the production gun list only shows two model APX's on their list, 

APX 4.3 inch 40 S&W (27.5 oz.)

APX 4.3 inch 9mm (26.8 oz.)

 

The APX Target model and combat models aren't even listed.  The APX Target model is supposed to be their full size striker fired competition gun.

 

 

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