CO optic falls off - bump to Open?

[mreed911]

16 hours ago, Sarge said:

It has glass so yes in my opinion. And the rules for CO only says optical/electronic sight required. Doesn’t have to be electronic and if it is it doesn’t have to work

 

There is an NROI blog post on this, but it's not defined in the Appendix, it's covered under the "plain language" definition:

 

https://nroi.org/rules-qa/flashlights-magnets-and-hip-bones/

 

"Functional means that it actually performs that function."

 

8 hours ago, IVC said:

I guess it would depend on whether it's considered a magazine pouch or not. Never gave it too much thought, my comment was about start signal...

 

FYI: the course of fire starts at Make Ready, not at the start signal.  The start signal only begins the competitor's attempt at the stage once in the course of fire.

[ddc]

23 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

the rule says there must be a slide mounted optic note it does not day functional. 

 

However if you also have a WML it must be functional... lol...

It's probably just me but there seems to be a slight disconnect there.

 

 

[mreed911]

26 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

However if you also have a WML it must be functional... lol...

It's probably just me but there seems to be a slight disconnect there.

 

See my reply.  And even though it's not canon, go read the linked blog post.

[twodownzero]

3 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I have pointed this out to the management several times, CO is the only division with REQUIRED equipment mounted to the gun. I have suggested before and will suggest every time it comes up that equipment be judged only at the start signal condition.

 

Except that's not the rule.  And in any event, competitor equipment cannot be changed during a match.  The only exception I know of is a substitute gun if the RM says okay.

[mreed911]

26 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

Except that's not the rule.  And in any event, competitor equipment cannot be changed during a match.  The only exception I know of is a substitute gun if the RM says okay.

 

Any competitor equipment can be changed with RM approval.

[MikeBurgess]

27 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

Except that's not the rule.  And in any event, competitor equipment cannot be changed during a match.  The only exception I know of is a substitute gun if the RM says okay.

I am aware thats not the rule at this time. thats why I try to point out that if we changed the rules to make the start signal the point in time that all equipment compliance is judged would fix all the possible rules based negative outcomes, they have enough problems with their equipment we don't need to kick them on top of it. 

 

 

 

 

[mreed911]

2 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I am aware thats not the rule at this time. thats why I try to point out that if we changed the rules to make the start signal the point in time that all equipment compliance is judged would fix all the possible rules based negative outcomes, they have enough problems with their equipment we don't need to kick them on top of it. 

 

Frankly, though, isn't this an edge case?  Is it worth an actual rule?

[MikeBurgess]

1 minute ago, mreed911 said:

 

Frankly, though, isn't this an edge case?  Is it worth an actual rule?

and flash light operational, and holster not too far from body (used to be position till last week) seems like we have several edge cases with serious negative outcome for the shooter and a very high likely hood that they will not be consistently enforced.  

 

the shooter at the area match that shot his optic out of the air was NOT moved to open, I have talked to several RO, CRO, RMI and nobody said they would move to open for that because its just mean, but the rules are clear, either move to Open or DQ for changing without RM approval.

[mreed911]

1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said:

and flash light operational, and holster not too far from body (used to be position till last week) seems like we have several edge cases with serious negative outcome for the shooter and a very high likely hood that they will not be consistently enforced.  

 

the shooter at the area match that shot his optic out of the air was NOT moved to open, I have talked to several RO, CRO, RMI and nobody said they would move to open for that because its just mean, but the rules are clear, either move to Open or DQ for changing without RM approval.

 

So I'll make the "ad absurdium" argument, then: Production shooter finishes make ready with a frame-mounted clip-on 12oz weight in his off hand.  At the beep, he clips the frame weight on the end of his gun, runs the course of fire, then before "if clear, hammer down" removes the clip-on weight.

 

He met the weight requirements at the beep and just to be safe, removes it before the end of the COF.

 

Under your suggestion, that would be legal because he was legal at the beep.

[MikeBurgess]

40 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

So I'll make the "ad absurdium" argument, then: Production shooter finishes make ready with a frame-mounted clip-on 12oz weight in his off hand.  At the beep, he clips the frame weight on the end of his gun, runs the course of fire, then before "if clear, hammer down" removes the clip-on weight.

 

He met the weight requirements at the beep and just to be safe, removes it before the end of the COF.

 

Under your suggestion, that would be legal because he was legal at the beep.

Wouldn't have to take it off but sure, anything you can do on the clock is fair game. looking at match results about the onlything that would make a difference is clipping on a optic, and unless you can do that in less than a second without any error inn alignment then your going backwards on your score. so if shooters want to go backwards great good for them. 

if someone invents a clip on optic that would be easy enough to regulate out and in general be good for firearmes development in the mean time.

 

 

[mreed911]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

Wouldn't have to take it off but sure, anything you can do on the clock is fair game. looking at match results about the onlything that would make a difference is clipping on a optic, and unless you can do that in less than a second without any error inn alignment then your going backwards on your score. so if shooters want to go backwards great good for them. 

if someone invents a clip on optic that would be easy enough to regulate out and in general be good for firearmes development in the mean time.

 

Note: I said weight, which would cause a gun to cross the 59oz limit, not optic.  Would require no alignment.  I'm being absurd to an extreme, for sure... to test the argument.

[IVC]

6 hours ago, mreed911 said:

FYI: the course of fire starts at Make Ready, not at the start signal.  The start signal only begins the competitor's attempt at the stage once in the course of fire.

That was exactly the point I was making - that the "start signal" is not used in any equipment-related rules that I can think of off of the top of my head partly because it's NOT the beginning of the COF and mostly because the rules are just what they are. 

 

Separately, the rules *should* indeed be changed and simplified such that the division compliance is required and enforced from the start signal until the end of the COF. There are a lot of things that can happen between "Make Ready" and the start signal that are really of no consequence to the shooting, yet are technically not allowed. Similarly, there are a lot of things that can happen when the shooter is not shooting at all and which are not strictly compatible with the rules that apply "always." For example, I don't think anyone would move to Open a Production guy who strapped his holster a bit too forward (prior to the latest rule changes) after coming out of a port-a-potty if the guy realized it and corrected it before the next stage. Or that anyone would move to Open a CO guy who walks around without optics on his gun while he is trying to retrieve a replacement for his failed optics. 

[MikeBurgess]

5 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

Note: I said weight, which would cause a gun to cross the 59oz limit, not optic.  Would require no alignment.  I'm being absurd to an extreme, for sure... to test the argument.

and I believe your absurd to the extreme outcome is totally acceptable. 

[IVC]

6 hours ago, ddc said:

 

However if you also have a WML it must be functional... lol...

It's probably just me but there seems to be a slight disconnect there.

 

 

The intent is simple - if you want to have a light, you can't fill the equivalent container with lead just to increase weight. The "must be functional" is actually not a good solution to the problem because it's easy to create a WML that is mostly lead, with a puny micro-light in it just for compliance. A better approach would be either to have a weight limit, or to let people shot whatever they want. It's a game anyways, and with this micro-regulation we're looking more like IDPA. 

[MikeBurgess]

2 minutes ago, IVC said:

That was exactly the point I was making - that the "start signal" is not used in any equipment-related rules that I can think of off of the top of my head partly because it's NOT the beginning of the COF and mostly because the rules are just what they are. 

 

Separately, the rules *should* indeed be changed and simplified such that the division compliance is required and enforced from the start signal until the end of the COF. There are a lot of things that can happen between "Make Ready" and the start signal that are really of no consequence to the shooting, yet are technically not allowed. Similarly, there are a lot of things that can happen when the shooter is not shooting at all and which are not strictly compatible with the rules that apply "always." For example, I don't think anyone would move to Open a Production guy who strapped his holster a bit too forward (prior to the latest rule changes) after coming out of a port-a-potty if the guy realized it and corrected it before the next stage. Or that anyone would move to Open a CO guy who walks around without optics on his gun while he is trying to retrieve a replacement for his failed optics. 

I would prefer a moment in time not the whole course of fire, that's how we got into this discussion in  the first place.  if something falls off or the shooter adds something on the clock who cares its on the clock time to last shot score as shot move on

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, mreed911 said:

 

Note: I said weight, which would cause a gun to cross the 59oz limit, not optic.  Would require no alignment.  I'm being absurd to an extreme, for sure... to test the argument.

i would say that is not only legal, but I would encourage it... especially for my competitors.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Already started machining light bodies out of brass.

ive seen all this before. 

I came from motorcycle drag racing back ground and let me tell you there’s no such thing as a small rule change !

Theres to many smart people out there with a  find the loophole mindset. you can call them gamers or whatever. There competitors. 
that’s why changes should always be a lengthy slow process with inventive people participating. 
There was a time in a really competitive class ( drag racing ) where you couldn’t add “weight” to the front end. that turned into  a five year ordeal of people one upping each other. What was considered weight. ??

can I remake a part out of a heavier material....sure. 
Does it have to have a function?? Yea 

that grey area is huge !

 

But looking back we missed the keyword in that rule, it wasn’t  weight it was “add”. 
that one word opens a door. 
rules apartment meant  to restrict not to allow. 
idk ,the adding of a light could seem benign at the time but nevertheless it’s open the door by the ADDition of a part. 
just my 1.5 cents 
 

[IVC]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

I would prefer a moment in time not the whole course of fire, that's how we got into this discussion in  the first place.  if something falls off or the shooter adds something on the clock who cares its on the clock time to last shot score as shot move on

Just out of curiosity, why would you concentrate on the "moment in time" when it can be "start signal to the end of COF," or even "start signal to the last shot" (which is the actual time of the stage)? If everyone shoots in compliant configuration, then there aren't any issues with any gear that wasn't used while shooting, or that was not compliant between the stages.

 

Oh, and remove the "required" from the CO. I believe it was to prevent a certain shooter from shooting his irons in CO during early stages of the division, but it's no longer needed since optics provides a clear advantage. Anyone wanting to handicap themselves in CO should be welcome. The whole "bump to open when the red dot fails" shouldn't even be a discussion. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by IVC

[Joe4d]

5 hours ago, IVC said:

That was exactly the point I was making - that the "start signal" is not used in any equipment-related rules that I can think of off of the top of my head partly because it's NOT the beginning of the COF and mostly because the rules are just what they are. 

 

Separately, the rules *should* indeed be changed and simplified such that the division compliance is required and enforced from the start signal until the end of the COF. There are a lot of things that can happen between "Make Ready" and the start signal that are really of no consequence to the shooting, yet are technically not allowed. Similarly, there are a lot of things that can happen when the shooter is not shooting at all and which are not strictly compatible with the rules that apply "always." For example, I don't think anyone would move to Open a Production guy who strapped his holster a bit too forward (prior to the latest rule changes) after coming out of a port-a-potty if the guy realized it and corrected it before the next stage. Or that anyone would move to Open a CO guy who walks around without optics on his gun while he is trying to retrieve a replacement for his failed optics. 

Is the start rule still used for the 10 round limit in mags in 10 round divisions ?

Used to be quite common to come to make ready with your start mag with 11 rounds in it.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

Is the start rule still used for the 10 round limit in mags in 10 round divisions ?

Used to be quite common to come to make ready with your start mag with 11 rounds in it.

Still common. That rule is clear as a bell. No more than ten rounds in a mag at the start signal. Loaded start, 11 rounds in mag. Unloaded start, no more than ten

[MikeBurgess]

15 hours ago, IVC said:

Just out of curiosity, why would you concentrate on the "moment in time" when it can be "start signal to the end of COF," or even "start signal to the last shot" (which is the actual time of the stage)? If everyone shoots in compliant configuration, then there aren't any issues with any gear that wasn't used while shooting, or that was not compliant between the stages.

 

Oh, and remove the "required" from the CO. I believe it was to prevent a certain shooter from shooting his irons in CO during early stages of the division, but it's no longer needed since optics provides a clear advantage. Anyone wanting to handicap themselves in CO should be welcome. The whole "bump to open when the red dot fails" shouldn't even be a discussion. 

with the removal of most of the holster location issues I would be ok with removing all the division required equipment stuff, but with the adding of functional lights we seem to be headed in the opposite direction. 

By making it a moment in time I believe the chances of the rules being enforced the same for all shooters is much higher. A dot falls off or a light breaks (or is found to be non functional)  or a holster shifts after the start signal no penalties to think about and maybe apply or not. 

 

[broadside72]

30 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

with the removal of most of the holster location issues I would be ok with removing all the division required equipment stuff, but with the adding of functional lights we seem to be headed in the opposite direction. 

By making it a moment in time I believe the chances of the rules being enforced the same for all shooters is much higher. A dot falls off or a light breaks (or is found to be non functional)  or a holster shifts after the start signal no penalties to think about and maybe apply or not. 

 

 

The holster thing is already covered and there is no retroactive penalties for holster/mag, etc. The RO is supposed to address those prior to the start and allow the shooter to rectify it.  See 5.2.5.2
 

[IVC]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

By making it a moment in time I believe the chances of the rules being enforced the same for all shooters is much higher.

I see your point and, upon reflection, would agree with you. It's not so much about "keep the equipment legal throughout the COF" as it is "have a simple and uniform way to interpret and enforce the rules." 

 

When you think about it, a lot of discussion about gear is superficial to begin with. A good shooter will be good regardless of small shifts in the holster or pouch position. It's more a matter of keeping uniformity and perceived competitive equity by having a set of rules that can be enforced, and having the rules enforced at a point in time seems to accomplish it well. The exception, obviously, would be non-compliant magazine capacities in Production or L10. Those are throughout the COF. 

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

 

The holster thing is already covered and there is no retroactive penalties for holster/mag, etc. The RO is supposed to address those prior to the start and allow the shooter to rectify it.  See 5.2.5.2
 

Excerpt  of text in 5.2.5.2  ...Any competitor who shoots a course of fire while out of compliance will receive a zero score for that course of fire, unless specifically exempted by the Range Master...

 

my bolding

 

So if at ULSC, HDH it is found your holster is too far out from the inside of your belt per division rules (long or short side of card) you get a zero for that stage, that is what the rule says. You don't get a zero for all the other stages it is likely you shot in similar fashion, but you do get one for that stage.  My suggestion is you either catch it at or before the start signal and they fix it before they shoot or you catch it later and tell them to fix before their next make ready. 

[broadside72]

17 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Excerpt  of text in 5.2.5.2  ...Any competitor who shoots a course of fire while out of compliance will receive a zero score for that course of fire, unless specifically exempted by the Range Master...

 

my bolding

 

So if at ULSC, HDH it is found your holster is too far out from the inside of your belt per division rules (long or short side of card) you get a zero for that stage, that is what the rule says. You don't get a zero for all the other stages it is likely you shot in similar fashion, but you do get one for that stage.  My suggestion is you either catch it at or before the start signal and they fix it before they shoot or you catch it later and tell them to fix before their next make ready. 

 

Correct. If found before the start, he is given opportunity to correct it. If found during the COF then its a zero and you mention it after the COF is completed. When does that bolded section no longer apply? If you have given range is clear, the COF is over, and then you notice the out of compliance while standing there next the the shooter, what happens? What is the timing of this rule? I guess this is what your suggestion covers, finding the non compliance immediately after a COF has finished. 

 

Then the issue is getting the ROs at the next stage to check it has been corrected.