CO optic falls off - bump to Open?

[StealthyBlagga]

I am sure I read a discussion like this before but I can’t find it.

 

Scenario: A Carry Optics competitor’s optic fall off the slide mid-stage. He continues to finish using his backup irons.

 

Appendix D7 says a slide-mounted optic is required. Is there any published or posted statement from DNROI that such equipment breakage should not result in a bump to Open? Must the competitor fix the sight before continuing the match? What if they just tape it back on and it falls off again after the first shot on each stage?

 

Any similar precedent for other gun breakage related, division compliance questions would be equally helpful. 

 

I know what natural justice and common sense might say, but this is USPSA so I’m asking here. 

[twodownzero]

If you can't meet the equipment requirements, there's only one answer.

[StealthyBlagga]

Well, under the scenario I sm proposing, the equipment requirements were met at the start signal. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by StealthyBlagga

[Lastcat]

6 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

I am sure I read a discussion like this before but I can’t find it.

 

Scenario: A Carry Optics competitor’s optic fall off the slide mid-stage. He continues to finish using his backup irons.

 

Appendix D7 says a slide-mounted optic is required. Is there any published or posted statement from DNROI that such equipment breakage should not result in a bump to Open? Must the competitor fix the sight before continuing the match? What if they just tape it back on and it falls off again after the first shot on each stage?

 

Any similar precedent for other gun breakage related, division compliance questions would be equally helpful. 

 

I know what natural justice and common sense might say, but this is USPSA so I’m asking here. 

 

The competitor does have 2 mins to correct the problem (5.7.4) and continue the COF. Continue as you stated without the Optic attached, that is fine, as long there is no malfunction or problems operating the gun.

 

5.7.2 In the event that a competitor’s firearm malfunctions after the Start signal,
the competitor may safely attempt to correct the problem and continue the
course of fire. During such corrective action, the competitor must keep the
muzzle of the firearm pointing safely downrange at all times.
 

Now if they come to the line on the next Stage without the mounted optic, that is a different story. As an RO I would ask the Shooter what their plan is and work with them. In CO they are required to have an Elec. Optical Sight, and explain D12. They can go back and try to fix the Optic Mount or continue without it, which would cause them to be moved to Open Div. 

 

D7 13 and D7 21.

[RJH]

I think it is dumb, but open for them

 

 

6.2.5.1

However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of

fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available,

otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. If a

competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements for

PCC or Open Division during the course of fire, he will shoot for no

score

[Schutzenmeister]

OK ... I've got to ask:

 

Has anyone ever actually seen this happen, or is this discussion purely academic?

[Lastcat]

1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said:

OK ... I've got to ask:

 

Has anyone ever actually seen this happen, or is this discussion purely academic?

 

Or is this an RO Test question? 

 

I've never seen it, yet. But if they declared CO before the Match starts and meets requirements for Div. and also after "Make Ready". Optic falling off during COF, I would be hard pressed to move them to Open for that particular stage. Now if they claim Prod. Div and during a Stage and see they are using 141 Mags fully loaded, then yes, move to Open. Waiting for Troy to arrive.... 

[RJH]

2 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

OK ... I've got to ask:

 

Has anyone ever actually seen this happen, or is this discussion purely academic?

Never seen it, so i lean towards purely academic.  I have seen sights come off a gun more than once though, so maybe it is a reasonable question after all 

[Joe4d]

59 minutes ago, Lastcat said:

 

Or is this an RO Test question? 

 

I've never seen it, yet. But if they declared CO before the Match starts and meets requirements for Div. and also after "Make Ready". Optic falling off during COF, I would be hard pressed to move them to Open for that particular stage. Now if they claim Prod. Div and during a Stage and see they are using 141 Mags fully loaded, then yes, move to Open. Waiting for Troy to arrive.... 

Was actually gonna use that as an example.   Say for whatever reason a shooter has a 140mm fully loaded mag in a pocket' and reloads with it out of a pocket during the stage...(production )
So in your mind that deserves a bump but another change during the COF doesnt ? a bit Hypocritical.
Work to change the rule,,, but AS written, like it or not the rule in question

 

5 hours ago, RJH said:

6.2.5.1

However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of

fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available,

otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. If a

competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements for

PCC or Open Division during the course of fire, he will shoot for no

score

Great big GIANT emphasis on the " DURING"

Yep seems extreme , but most of our rules dont make exceptions for equipment failures. Nor should they,,, or shooters would be given constant a alibis,

And just because a rule is jacked, shouldnt excuse "rulings" contrary to the English reading of the rule.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Joe4d

[SGT_Schultz]

10 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

OK ... I've got to ask:

 

Has anyone ever actually seen this happen, or is this discussion purely academic?

 

Believe it or not I've read posts on some tactitard forums about RDS falling off during classes/drills/whatever.

 

I guess there are some men in this country that don't know how to fasten screws properly so they don't come loose.

Edited March 21, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[twodownzero]

23 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

Well, under the scenario I sm proposing, the equipment requirements were met at the start signal. 

 

The problem for the shooter is that they have to be met throughout the course of fire.  To open!  Which ain't so bad, if it was up to me, that's where they would  be, and for much of USPSA history, that's where every gun with an optic would go.

[Whitefish]

Along with a bump to open, I'll bet the shooter learns another lesson the hard way. The more you add to a gun, the more Murphy's law applies to function. Optics are just one more thing to add to your "pre-race check list" and require more attention to detail, both large and small - like making sure the mount/screws is/are secure and the optic actually works.

[Norther]

Somewhere there’s a video of it happening. At the beep, shooter draws, fires, optic flies off, second shot shoots it out of the air.

[Sarge]

The original rule should have required elimination of iron sights in welfare open. 

[RJH]

9 minutes ago, Sarge said:

The original rule should have required elimination of iron sights in welfare open. 

 

They should have just called it carry, allowed full standard length mags and the *option* of slide riding optics. You know, like a gun people actually carry lol

Edited March 21, 2021 by RJH

[Sarge]

15 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

They should have just called it carry, allowed full standard length mags and the *option* of slide riding optics. You know, like a gun people actually carry lol

Yep, because that's where it is today. Could have saved steps.

[IVC]

On 3/19/2021 at 9:14 PM, StealthyBlagga said:

Well, under the scenario I sm proposing, the equipment requirements were met at the start signal. 

I cannot think of any rule that would be linked to the start signal alone. There are rules that apply only during a COF and there are rules that apply all the time. 
 

As an example, having a magnet on the belt in Production, even if not used, would be a bump to Open. The same with any magazine pouch in the front, whether used or not. The recent rule changes eliminated this issue, but it's still true that rules apply either always or during a COF. 

[IVC]

A more interesting question is whether it's a bump to Open if the sight falls off outside the COF - the equipment rule doesn't specify that it's only applicable during the COF. 

[waktasz]

42 minutes ago, IVC said:

I cannot think of any rule that would be linked to the start signal alone. There are rules that apply only during a COF and there are rules that apply all the time. 
 

As an example, having a magnet on the belt in Production, even if not used, would be a bump to Open. The same with any magazine pouch in the front, whether used or not. The recent rule changes eliminated this issue, but it's still true that rules apply either always or during a COF. 

 

Magnet on the belt was not a bump to open unless it was used. 
 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

not to be a Richard but ..

What if it stops working durning the corse of fire. 
no more dot in the window. 
Is it still an optic at that point ? 
 

[Ming the Merciless]

I would recommend carrying a RED Sharpie in your shirt pocket.  Dot goes out, whip out the Sharpie and put a red dot in the middle of the lens and carry on.

 

I would also recommend putting a good sized glob of Permatex 25228 "Right Stuff" gasket maker between your red dot, the mount, and your gun when installing it.  Anybody who has ever tried taking off a differential or valve cover installed with "Right Stuff" will know what I mean, your red dot ain't goin' flyin' off!

[Sarge]

56 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

not to be a Richard but ..

What if it stops working durning the corse of fire. 
no more dot in the window. 
Is it still an optic at that point ? 
 

It has glass so yes in my opinion. And the rules for CO only says optical/electronic sight required. Doesn’t have to be electronic and if it is it doesn’t have to work

[IVC]

14 hours ago, waktasz said:

Magnet on the belt was not a bump to open unless it was used. 

I guess it would depend on whether it's considered a magazine pouch or not. Never gave it too much thought, my comment was about start signal...

[MikeBurgess]

On 3/19/2021 at 3:37 PM, StealthyBlagga said:

I am sure I read a discussion like this before but I can’t find it.

 

Scenario: A Carry Optics competitor’s optic fall off the slide mid-stage. He continues to finish using his backup irons.

 

Appendix D7 says a slide-mounted optic is required. Is there any published or posted statement from DNROI that such equipment breakage should not result in a bump to Open? Must the competitor fix the sight before continuing the match? What if they just tape it back on and it falls off again after the first shot on each stage?

 

Any similar precedent for other gun breakage related, division compliance questions would be equally helpful. 

 

I know what natural justice and common sense might say, but this is USPSA so I’m asking here. 

I have pointed this out to the management several times, CO is the only division with REQUIRED equipment mounted to the gun. I have suggested before and will suggest every time it comes up that equipment be judged only at the start signal condition.

 

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

17 hours ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

not to be a Richard but ..

What if it stops working durning the corse of fire. 
no more dot in the window. 
Is it still an optic at that point ? 
 

the rule says there must be a slide mounted optic note it does not day functional.