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Are IWB holsters now legal?


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2 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

So is "cross draw" now legal? Oh do we now have an imaginary line for appendix carry that the gun cant go past? Only asking because I'm not sure. 

 

Its fuzzy in my memory, but I am pretty sure crossdraw has always been  legal in Lim and Open and never been an issue, not sure why it would be now in SS, pro, or CO

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27 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Its fuzzy in my memory, but I am pretty sure crossdraw has always been  legal in Lim and Open and never been an issue, not sure why it would be now in SS, pro, or CO

There is no way to draw from a cross draw holster without breaking the 180. You can draw from appendix carry without breaking the 180.

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47 minutes ago, Sarge said:

There is no way to draw from a cross draw holster without breaking the 180. You can draw from appendix carry without breaking the 180.

Sure there is, you just have to turn your body to do it. I'm pretty sure the only holsters specifically against the rules are shoulder holsters and tie-down rigs. And the tie-down you can use if you are using your duty gear. I double checked before I posted  and I saw nothing saying you cannot use a cross draw holster. You will however have to turn your body to draw without breaking the 180, which for everyone who wants to even come close to winning makes a cross draw a no-go anyway. Maybe USPSA figured it was a self-correcting problem LOL

 

If you find a rule saiyng otherwise let me know though, but if it's there I sure missed it. Which is a possibility...

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36 minutes ago, RJH said:

Sure there is, you just have to turn your body to do it. I'm pretty sure the only holsters specifically against the rules are shoulder holsters and tie-down rigs. And the tie-down you can use if you are using your duty gear. I double checked before I posted  and I saw nothing saying you cannot use a cross draw holster. You will however have to turn your body to draw without breaking the 180, which for everyone who wants to even come close to winning makes a cross draw a no-go anyway. Maybe USPSA figured it was a self-correcting problem LOL

 

If you find a rule saiyng otherwise let me know though, but if it's there I sure missed it. Which is a possibility...

Agreed. Can’t find a rule but cross draw is in the glossary for some reason. Almost seems it “should” be in there somewhere. Maybe it was omitted by mistake? All I remember is people talking about how it was legal many years ago.

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8 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Agreed. Can’t find a rule but cross draw is in the glossary for some reason. Almost seems it “should” be in there somewhere. Maybe it was omitted by mistake? All I remember is people talking about how it was legal many years ago.

I saw that it was in the glossary as well, I was hoping it would say something specific in the rulebook. And yep, the only time I've ever really heard about it at a match is from the old timers talking about people used to shoot cross draw or something along those lines LOL

 

 

Probably after the first couple of DQ's for 180 violations people decided cross-draw wasn't with the way to go

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From the way back machine (1996):

 

7.18 HOLSTER CHOICE - No match shall require the use of a particular type of holster. Cross draws and shoulder holsters are specifically allowed. Unless specified in the course instructions, holsters may not be moved or changed during the match (See 7.15, 7.17). Open division competitors using holsters on the belt may be required by the Range Officer to move the holster position to the side when starting seated.

 

 

This rule went away sometime between 1996 - 2002. (13th and 14th Editions)

Edited by ChuckS
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1 hour ago, RJH said:

I saw that it was in the glossary as well, I was hoping it would say something specific in the rulebook. And yep, the only time I've ever really heard about it at a match is from the old timers talking about people used to shoot cross draw or something along those lines LOL

 

 

Probably after the first couple of DQ's for 180 violations people decided cross-draw wasn't with the way to go

Stance was different back in the day. If you're shooting weaver, a cross draw isn't necessary behind the 180.

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33 minutes ago, PatJones said:

Stance was different back in the day. If you're shooting weaver, a cross draw isn't necessary behind the 180.

That makes sense. I would love to see some old footage of somebody shooting the cross draw rig. I've never seen anyone shoot a cross draw rig at a USPSA match, would be interesting

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I do remember articles about chest-rigs even being used 'way back when'. 

They viewed the value as placing the gun closer to the hands when starting in a surrender position. 

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The ONLY reference to Cross Draw in the rules is in the glossary:

 

Quote

Cross draw  When a competitor draws with their strong hand while wearing their holster on the opposite side of the body.

 

There is no reference, which I can find, declaring use of such holster as prohibited.  However, as others have stated, you are at serious risk of the 180 when you holster or draw.  CAN it be done safely?  Certainly ... But it's frequently a time-waster and has fallen out of favor for that reason.

 

The only person I remember using it routinely was Walker ... But that's Hollywood.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've watched videos on YouTube of old majors and saw a few cross draw holsters. Mayne the old Colt matches? Either way its definitely not used these days. As for appendix draw, I can see it being really close to the 180 coming out of the holster. Considering that you are usually facing down range and the holstered gun will be pointing straight to the side berm as it is drawn or if you have is slightly to one side it may be breaking the 180 already. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/17/2021 at 2:21 PM, SGT_Schultz said:

How practical is it to enforce that?

 

We can sweep ourselves with a loaded gun when drawing or holstering, but a pistol in its holster is dangerous pointing at the ground 37" away?

 

LOL


Only the lower extremities (below the belt) can be swept while drawing or holstering and the competitors fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. Otherwise, the competitor may not sweep themselves or others. For example, a competitor that sweeps their own hand while holstering or drawing or sweeps a lower extremity with their finger inside the trigger guard is in violation of 10.5.5 and should be DQ’d. 

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For cross draw, read the article in the current USPSA magazine on page 10.  Seems Troy is saying cross draw is not legal.  

 

Just how how I read it anyway.  

 

Mike

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Yeah ... I read that too.  I'm still waiting for him to point out just where in the rules it says a cross-draw holster is prohibited.  (Shoulder rigs, usually on the weak side, have been prohibited FOREVER ... for obvious reasons!)  I do agree, a cross-draw setup is a HUGE invitation to breaking the 180 during the draw or holstering, but it CAN be done safely.

 

As evidenced by the exception for holsters with an FBI cant, the 180 is neither the Alpha nor the Omega with respect to holster position.  Were I to actually see a shooter come to the line with his holster in a cross-draw position I have NO idea what rule I could cite telling him he cannot do this.  I WOULD watch him like a hawk during holstering and drawing, but outside of that I see nothing in the rules giving me grounds to do much of anything.

 

As I stated previously, the only reference I can find in the rules to a cross-draw holster is in the glossary defining what it is.  If Troy wishes to have it banned he really needs to convince the BoD to approve a rule that makes that clear.

 

JMHO

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We had a guy shoot with a cross draw holster a few years ago in Australia at our IPSC Nationals, a lot of RO discussion but there was nothing in the rule book that prevented it. What they did do was ask him to modify his stance slightly prior to drawing the gun. He was amenable to that and so shot the match with no issues if I remember correctly.   

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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

8.5.1 Non-Permitted Holsters (Non-Inclusive list):
A. Cross-draw carry
B. Shoulder holsters
C. Small of the back carry
D. Appendix carry
E. Pocket carry

i believe the appendix carry a

has been changed. 

Edited by Tuck44
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2 hours ago, Tuck44 said:

8.5.1 Non-Permitted Holsters (Non-Inclusive list):
A. Cross-draw carry
B. Shoulder holsters
C. Small of the back carry
D. Appendix carry
E. Pocket carry

i believe the appendix carry a

has been changed. 

 

This isn't IDPA

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2 hours ago, PatJones said:

First post. Troll?

 

I don't think so. We have a lot of people make their first post with less than accurate information. That's OK.

I suspect he's quoting the IDPA rulebook, though I don't have a copy handy to confirm.

 

Can someone do a copy-and-paste of the IDPA rulebook, related to 8.5.1?

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From the NROI Blog:

 

Holster Position Redux

April 15, 2021 by Troy McManus

In a previous post, I explained that, while the position on the belt requirement (behind the point of the hips for Production, Single Stack, and Carry Optics) has been removed, the requirements in all divisions, yes, even Open and Limited, for the height to belt and distance from the belt have not changed. This is found in all the appendices, D1-D8, item #10. Here’s the text of the previous article:

Position of holsters and magazine pouches has been relaxed. No more “behind the point of the hip” language for Production, Single Stack, and Carry Optics. The requirements for height-to-belt and distance-from-belt are still in place, per 5.2.5, 5.2.7.2, and D1-D8 #10, but you can move your holster and magazine pouches around now. This includes inside-the-waistband carry, and yes, even in the appendix position, and from concealment if you wish. It does NOT allow cross-draw carry—that’s a 180 breaker almost every time. You still can’t draw from concealment in Steel Challenge, however. E3 was left in the rules to demonstrate the definition of “hands relaxed at sides”.

In addition, the restriction on tie-down rigs has not been removed. You may not wear a holster with a leg strap of any kind in USPSA competition. This is not the case for steel challenge or multigun, but in regular USPSA competition, thigh straps are not allowed. There seems to be considerable confusion over this simple point.

 

 

https://nroi.org/rules-insights/holster-position-redux/

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56 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

I don't think so. We have a lot of people make their first post with less than accurate information. That's OK.

I suspect he's quoting the IDPA rulebook, though I don't have a copy handy to confirm.

 

Can someone do a copy-and-paste of the IDPA rulebook, related to 8.5.1?

 

Yep, IDPA

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10 hours ago, David.Hylton said:

 It does NOT allow cross-draw carry—that’s a 180 breaker almost every time.

 

I wonder what rule can he quote to support that.  His reasoning that it might break the 180 "almost every time" isn't good enough.

 

If someone wants to wear a pistol cross draw, I don't care because I can't cite a rule against it.  It's on them if they want to go through the time wasting contortions to not DQ on the draw for 180.  But if they manage to draw without a DQ, more power to them.

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