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One shot zero?


Tango
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3 hours ago, Tango said:

Let's say you are checking the zero of your gun. You want to shoot a group, but you hit the bullseye in the first shot. Do you need to continue shooting, or call it good?

 

It depends on your shot call.  If you are absolutely sure the shot broke when the sights were exactly on point of aim, then yes one shot is all it takes.

 

Personally, I cannot zero a pistol with iron sights in one shot.  Occasionally I can do it with a pistol equipped with a red dot sight.  A scoped rifle fired from a bipod, pretty much every single time.

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7 hours ago, Tango said:

Let's say you are checking the zero of your gun. You want to shoot a group, but you hit the bullseye in the first shot. Do you need to continue shooting, or call it good?


3-5 at least, depending on the gun cold bore can be an issue and better safe than sorry. 

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5 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

It depends on your shot call.  If you are absolutely sure the shot broke when the sights were exactly on point of aim, then yes one shot is all it takes.

 

Personally, I cannot zero a pistol with iron sights in one shot.  Occasionally I can do it with a pistol equipped with a red dot sight.  A scoped rifle fired from a bipod, pretty much every single time.

I can do much better precision shooting with irons than the dot, but it has to be nice thin target style sights not the combat style thick ones. I agree that if you are certain of your shot calling, 1 shot should be enough if you hit the bullseye from 10 yards or further. What is the likelihood that you hit exactly where you are aiming, by chance? Very, very small. For this to happen, your trigger pull or sight picture should be off in a way to perfectly compensate the misaligned sights, which is very unlikely to happen.

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5 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Need to accept the wobble.  It's there with irons too, you just can't see so much of it.

For me, the dot covers too much for precision shooting. Nothing beats all black target sights and a 6 o'clock hold on a circular target. Extreme precision, because you are aligning a straight line (front post) and an arc (target), which intersect in a single point.

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5 hours ago, Tango said:

For me, the dot covers too much for precision shooting. Nothing beats all black target sights and a 6 o'clock hold on a circular target. Extreme precision, because you are aligning a straight line (front post) and an arc (target), which intersect in a single point.

 

You can use a dot as two tangent circles, or you can center it in the bullseye, or you can buy a holosun and use the 32 MOA ring as an aperture.

 

I shot both NRA service rifle and match rifle, there's more than a 6 o'clock hold to make precise shots.

 

In any case, if I needed that level of precision I'd reach for a rifle.

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Even if it was shot from a vise it wouldn't be enough. A single shot doesn't tell you anything about the spread, and the spread exists and is inherent in the gun itself even under ideal conditions (perfect hold, e.g., vise, and perfect trigger pull). 

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The minimum I would accept is three shots. It tells me about the *group* I can get with the specific method of shooting and skill level, so I can judge whether it's good enough or not for what I'm using the gun. This covers my own inconsistencies because it's an actual group from the specific gun and from the specific individual. 

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I do it two ways, quick shoot one shot & confirm your call and bullets  strike are the same. For a 100 % sure zero long run center of impact is the best. For me it’s not needed pistol, essential Silhouette rifle . I could see advanced action pistol shooters could use the method, it goes like this .
 

Post a cardboard painted facsimile of match target at match distance . From position and at match pace shoot a group. Don’t go slow and use bullseye holds, that’s not how the gun will be used. Silhouette match is 10 on a critter I usually run a 20 shot Group.  Take the target and X out any obvious off or “ flyer” shots .  Other words ignore bad shots for strike confirmation .
 

Bring the target back to a bench and box in the group with a framing square. Draw a X through the corners. Center of the X is center of impact long run as the gun will be used  For Silhouette I repeat at all 4 Critter distances & log sight settings.  Fixed pistol sight no change in sight  setting very useful to know change in point of impact at distance 

 

I can tell you Rifles center of impact fired offhand, strings of 5 in 2 1/2 minutes is different than couple of shots from a rest. Pistols  I don’t go as far but do shoot 10 Mozambique’s at the IDPA target 10 yards and eyeball the groups . Mine have a bias left that will not show up going slow from a rest.

 

Scored on strikes better to test as you will be scored.

 

Boats 

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Here you go found this in my photos several years ago. NRA 100 meter 1/2 size Lever Rimfire silhouette target. 100 meters iron sight Marlin 39A CCI SV  about 80% hits long run 60 shots. This a final target after running a few shorter test to adjust the sights.

 

What did I learn ? Did not have confidence in the gun on Rams, now I do.  Centered up group made for higher # of hits. Slight sight miss-adjustment elevation would have increased the miss % . Ram target wide don’t worry much about wind adjustment but deviation from no wind good to know when shooting Matches, wait out gust or shoot without regard to wind. I do study the wide misses after I use the target to zero . My high misses from eyesight issues fuzzy front sight. Low coming out of the gun too fast that’s part of shooting fast to get a true Center zero. Happens some late shots time running out and very useful to know & avoid. Low right under the neck  I overheld & shot on a bobble 

 

Most not all Action pistol steel targets higher than wide. Windage errors will cost points, elevation not much  . IDPA zero ring is round you need centered up elevation and windage or accept 3s . Round plates need well centered groups. Need to know difference distances will make. It’s best if all guns are well zeroed.

 

On plates. Yesterday silhouette practice stopped by the gun clubs plate rack with my 6 month old carry 92FS compact. Ran the plate rack couple times . Used to use my Combat Commander . They group different, 92 tighter with left bias Commander larger long run groups with more elevation error.  Never figure this out without group shooting on paper & bench rest will give false indication

 

Boats .

CCE967C2-A53A-47AC-9958-D13DDE27B79C.jpeg

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7 hours ago, Boats said:

From position and at match pace shoot a group. Don’t go slow and use bullseye holds, that’s not how the gun will be used. 

I have seen/heard this before, but personally I have a very serious issue with it and am not sure that what you suggest is the way to go. Of course, I cannot make any claims for other people, so I will just state my opinion (grain of salt, and all that). 

 

There is an objective zeroing of a gun based on where and how the bullet flies relative to the sights. This will change with the type of bullet and powder, but will be very close in general because barrel is supposed to launch bullets in the direction of the bore, with differences in accuracy coming from how bullet engages rifling, its velocity and spin, concentricity of the bullet and a myriad of small details that can affect both POI (accuracy) and the spread (precision). One could argue that the torque generated by the bullet engaging rifling and getting spun will change how the gun shoots between free-hand, supported and from a mechanical rest. This effect is extremely small, if any, and will primarily affect movement of the gun in recoil and (I would argue) imperceptibly the POI itself, at least compared to other sources of error such as bullet inconsistency, brass variations, powder inconsistency and alike. It's a "second-order small" effect. So, there IS such thing as "objectively sighted-in gun." 

 

Putting aside the issue of sight picture**, any time the bullet does NOT strike where the sights are pointed it requires practice and correction. For starters, you cannot call the shots. Either you see the moment when the gun fires and realize you're pulling it off the target (you're calling shots and seeing that you have to correct your technique), OR, you're not seeing the sights at the time the gun fires (so the shot is off) and you're by definition not calling the shots correctly - you are only seeing the sights at the moment *before* the shot is fired, likely the moment you start pulling your trigger, but not the final position of the sights as the shot fires. 

 

(** My preference in sight picture is that the top of the sight matches center of the bullet at 25 yards for USPSA, but I would gladly shoot a bullseye match with the gun sighted such that the top of the sights touches the bottom of the black circle at the specified distance and for the specified target size. Also, my preference for USPSA changed, where couple of years ago I would sight-in the gun to where the fiber-optic dot was the POI, but there are many reasons why I now believe it's not a good system and why I eventually changed it.) 

 

Calling shots is arguably the most important advanced skill of shooting and setting the sights to compensate for suboptimal grip and/or trigger pull *guarantees* you're not doing it. That's a problem. 

 

Another problem is that as you refine your grip and trigger pull, you will start missing. When you start missing, instead of getting the correct feedback that you're doing *better*, you will get exactly the opposite - that you're doing *worse*. So, you will actually prevent yourself from getting better because you will want to fall back to the bad habit any time you actually do get better. That's quite counterproductive. 

 

7 hours ago, Boats said:

Mine have a bias left that will not show up going slow from a rest.

The "low left" for right-handed shooters is the usual pattern when rushing with trigger pull and not having refined (enough) grip and/or trigger control. If you add movement (transitions), it can also be because of the imprecise stopping, imprecise timing or even just "riding the sights" during the transition. The sarcastic "fix" is to tell the shooter to "aim high-right." 

 

That is another reason why I personally would never want to shoot a gun that doesn't have a very specific POI (relative to POA) which can be measured and confirmed in the vise and which is not in any way shooter-specific. 

 

 

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Your opinion is valid and there is a lot we agree on. Key is calling shots. I have reached the point I don’t want to shoot any shots without calling the strike. This learned first from Smallbore Prone, international rule 50 meters iron sights. You have access to the spotting scope beside your mat & confirm strike every shot, 2 sighters allowed once going for record no more.. Silhouette offhand any shooter not using a spotter with spotting scope and push pin spotting board is shooting for fun not for score. It’s the fastest way to train a new shooter and experienced shooters to advance. This driven home recently training my 13 year old grandson, kids like to shoot fast, let him for a while then out comes the spotting scope and spotting board. He puts a pin spot he thinks the bullet strikes I replace it different color pin actual strike.  I started shooting shotguns late in life, sporting clays. Have a very good coach who watches the shot and targets break & asks were I put the shot string. From the answer he corrects and explains. Signed my grandson up with him and after the basics question were did you put the shot string is the core of the lesson.

 

Also agree MECHANICAL accuracy, gun load sights is critical, if it won’t shoot precisely calling strike is very difficult. Back to Shotguns to the point good coaches want you to use very tight chokes so the call & strike is more precise. Worse thing is the shooter breaks with a lucky edge pellet and thinks every thing went well. We also agree in sight exactly were the point of impact is. When I was a Silhouette match director often heard shooters say they “held belly of the Ram, between the pIgs legs”  etc. Never saw a good shooter do that, it’s a bullseye trick to overcome the rule requIred sights. Put the bullet were you want the strike the way to shoot good scores. My opinion on the original OP request I should have said “ starting with a gun properly zeroed” then fine tuned from position.

 

We differ in adjusting the gun for match shooting. Even the most stable of shooting set ups Prone rifle from a mat sling shooting coat gun held tight shoulder cheek forearm & grip will have a different point of impact match rule position to bench rest. To the point prone shooters test .22 Ammo from Prone. They may test rifle ammo combinations mechanical rest indoors controlled conditions. Match sights come from position. Shotgun coach adjust comb height stock shape etc from shooting targets flying not stationary target pattern board. It’s reserved to test loads and patterns.

 

Core of it is every firearm recoils & starts its movement while the projectile is in the barrel. More recoil, more movement, more difference in mechanical accuracy vs practical accuracy on target.  Firearm that has the most recoil and held in the least secure position is a pistol. Difference in point impact shift hidden by distance & size of the targets but it’s there. This from a veteran bullseye shooter our  club, he says he can change point of impact 1911 pistol by how he adjust the friction spring in a Ransom Rest. Short of it is scored by strIkes best adjust with strikes under match conditions.

 

Boats  

 

 

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