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NROI states a rules clarification is coming re: magnets, flashlights


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3 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 I believe the reason folks don't use lasers is they don't frikin' work well for our sport!  If they did, Open shooters would have been using them for a long time.  I've tried shooting with a laser before.  It's darn near impossible to track in recoil making second shots worse than difficult at speed.


no disagreement from me at all.

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3 hours ago, facedown said:

 

Flashlight Clarification 2

 

Ruling:  Amend D2-D7 by adding this sentence:  Use of lasers prohibited.  

 

I give up ... Didn't see that particular "Clarification" before I posted. 

 

I do question its validity, however, as the sights requirements (i.e., Optical/electronic sights REQUIRED ...) for CO read EXACTLY the same as for Open (i.e., Optical/electronic sights permitted - Yes).  The only difference is "Required" vs. "permitted."  The wording for the type of sights is the same.

 

This is out of control ... I think I mentioned something about the Greeks and Pandora's Box earlier.

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That's not an accident. They didn't want someone showing up to the first CO nationals (the day after Production nationals) and winning without a dot on their gun. 

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11 hours ago, waktasz said:

That's not an accident. They didn't want someone showing up to the first CO nationals (the day after Production nationals) and winning without a dot on their gun. 

cuz stoeger joked about trying to do so. Now that stoeger has gone into hibernation, and CO has 140mm magazines, I don't think it's a serious worry anymore.

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It's not. The division is mature enough now that nobody would be able to, but that first year, and since we were all already in Illinois for nats, it was worth giving it a shot, especially considering the size of the match and the rules at the time (10 rounds), a top 10 for me was possible. They shut that down real fast.

 

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19 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

I give up ... Didn't see that particular "Clarification" before I posted. 

 

Because it probably wasn't there yet.  Look at the dates.  I can't imagine wanting to RO a Level 2 or higher now with all these separate from the rule book.

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24 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

Because it probably wasn't there yet.  Look at the dates.  I can't imagine wanting to RO a Level 2 or higher now with all these separate from the rule book.

Or you start match with one set of rules and the rule book is "updated" before the match ends. Yeah for an evergreen rule book.......

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14 hours ago, waktasz said:

That's not an accident. They didn't want someone showing up to the first CO nationals (the day after Production nationals) and winning without a dot on their gun. 

I totally understood the required optic when the division was provisional, it was the only way to get any data that was usable, otherwise half or more of the data would have been iron sighted guns, the day it was made permanent it should have been dropped.  

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22 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

I give up ... Didn't see that particular "Clarification" before I posted. 

 

I do question its validity, however, as the sights requirements (i.e., Optical/electronic sights REQUIRED ...) for CO read EXACTLY the same as for Open (i.e., Optical/electronic sights permitted - Yes).  The only difference is "Required" vs. "permitted."  The wording for the type of sights is the same.

 

 

Explanation received from Troy indicates "Flashlight Clarification 2" and the prohibition on lasers in CO applies to line #14 dealing with flashlights (WML.)  A laser sight properly mounted to the slide falls under line #13 is is perfectly acceptable ... but even he agrees, he thinks that's a dumb idea!

Edited by Schutzenmeister
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On 3/13/2021 at 5:40 PM, Schutzenmeister said:

 

I don't know what the point would be.  If you're in CO the laser would send you to Open.  The Open shooters have already figured out it doesn't help.

 

I did some further searching on Google ... Apparently LaserLyte pretty much did something like that 5-10 years ago.  Wasn't terribly reliable (based on reviews) and died out.

 

See following example from Midway ...

LaserLyte Rear Sight Red Laser Glock All Models Matte (midwayusa.com)

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On 3/12/2021 at 4:57 PM, motosapiens said:

It appears that I disagree with you on just about everything, but at least we can have a respectful conversation about it. I think retreat stages are an important part of the sport and a shooter's skillset, but I also think they require extra care from the stage designer and RO to be safe and non-dickish.  

 

I understand the concept of weight limits as applied to the original idea of production (and ss), but once you started seeing custom shop race-only guns made in quantities of 2000 (we promise!), that kinda made the weight limits stupid and counterproductive. I wonder how many serious competitors even still shoot old-school sub 30 oz duty/carry guns in production anymore.  I imagine everyone is different based on strength, skill, and so forth, but for me, once I get up to around 40 oz with minor loads, extra weight has zero benefit overall, but I do definitely notice a speed/accuracy difference between 30 and 40 oz. I'll never put a flashlight on any of the guns I currently own, but if I was still rocking the xdm in CO, I might very well try a flashlight instead of spending $1500 on a custom shop race-only cz. I'd be very interested to see how big the difference was.

 

anyway, this has been a very interesting thread. Some whining and dumb points, but also lots of good points brought up that I think will eventually have to be addressed.

 

I can actually appreciate the position that the horse is already out of the barn.  It wasn't for me because I haven't shot production in a long time, but I do think it's annoying now that I want to shoot it again that the rules have essentially made the equipment that made production what it was, obsolete.

 

I prefer a heavier gun generally but there are plenty of shooters who would kick our asses with lighter guns.  It probably doesn't matter as much I'm giving it credit for.

 

If the horse is out of the barn for good, maybe we'd be better off just having fewer divisions overall.  It's not as if there's some really important reason that we have to have a precisely defined division for every type of equipment.  I could shoot my production gun in Limited or L-10 just the same.

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39 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

Explanation received from Troy indicates "Flashlight Clarification 2" and the prohibition on lasers in CO applies to line #14 dealing with flashlights (WML.)  A laser sight properly mounted to the slide falls under line #13 is is perfectly acceptable ... but even he agrees, he thinks that's a dumb idea!

 

Well now I'm LOL'ing all over again.

 

To be clear, I don't think it's a good idea as a competitive shooter, either... but you can't tell me folks won't do it.  :)

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I think the rule change is for the better, especially about holster and mag pouch positions. Pistol lasers are horrible and irrelevant anyway.

 

As far as lights, I think the approval of heavy weight guns for CO and production, make the issues with them somewhat irrelevant. As far as night matches and low light stages, I think that would be interesting.

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They should also clarify 5.2.4.1 and 5.2.4.2 while they are at it since those no longer apply given the position requirements are gone.

 

Without a definition of a flashlight, the gamers will be putting a big metal weight on the frame rail and drilling a hole to slide in a pen light, or better yet an LED with tiny battery as long as weight is made in the division.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

Without a definition of a flashlight, the gamers will be putting a big metal weight on the frame rail and drilling a hole to slide in a pen light, or better yet an LED with tiny battery as long as weight is made in the division.

 

 

 

NROI already gave the de facto definition, but yea, it's going to have to be added to the glossary. 

 

All of that is already being worked on by various people.  You'll start seeing examples of "weights" with a tiny LED installed pretty soon.  The hurdle will be holsters, but with the 10 billion kydex benders out there, someone will facilitate. 

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6 minutes ago, cheby said:

 

Headlamps are absolutely horrible for low light shooting. 

You don't want light hitting the sights, gun, or your hands or it's all you'll see. 

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58 minutes ago, cheby said:

We also need a definition of a headlamp. I am going to wear it for low light stages

 Somebody on a different forum just came up with this brilliant idea. I don't think there is anything in the rule book prohibiting this:

[...]

 Yeah ... But 9 times out of 10 the WSB will require you to use the match-provided flashlight and nothing else.  It sort of levels the playing field that way.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/13/2021 at 4:10 PM, BritinUSA said:

WSB Question: In a ‘dark house’ stage, a small hand-held flashlight is available for use. Could the WSB indicate that a competitor can either use the supplied flashlight (or one of their own)?

 

If so, in this scenario a competitor with a mounted light would have a significant advantage over a competitor that had to hold a flashlight in their hand while shooting. In this case does it essentially push EVERY competitor to get a WML mounted on their gun to avoid the potential disadvantage?


Maybe a third clarification will mention DQing anyone who turns on their flashlight.  I shoot a 31 oz Limited gun, so I don’t care if my competition hangs bricks from their guns.  However, I have shot enough low light/dark stages in IDPA to know they have no place in sanctioned matches.  They are rare in USPSA, but could become more common if shooters are using flashlights.  Needing a WML to remain competitive on a dark stage is stupid.  

Edited by deerslayer
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On 3/15/2021 at 4:31 PM, broadside72 said:

 the gamers will be putting a big metal weight on the frame rail and drilling a hole to slide in a pen light, 

 

 

Rumor is Strader has already done that.

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20 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Why not.. 

They opened the door for this. 
Making it adjustable so it slides in and out to change balance as needed.
That would be trick. 

i totally recommend that people I compete against change the balance of their gun between stages. That is high-speed lo-drag....

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6 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i totally recommend that people I compete against change the balance of their gun between stages. That is high-speed lo-drag....

Lol

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