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challenging problem shooting handgun, help appreciated


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I have a very good friend, he's taken formal instruction classes, he's been shooting for many years now. he's very safe and has a modern and consistent 2 hand grip, his stance is isosceles i don't think he's slapping the trigger, if so it's very slight?  i know he's prepping the trigger and identifying the reset as we've been taught. he wears glasses but has no significant visual or neurological challenges per se.

 

his overall group size of 10 rounds fired off-hand standing at 12 yards, shooting several high quality pistols,  routinely seem to run around 3.5 inches in width .

 

the problem that he's struggling with is that when he shoots it's almost like he ends up with 2 different groups on a single target from a single 10 round magazine load.....many of the shots will go to a single, rather consistent, point of aim.... and every couple of shots a single shot will end up an inch down and left of the major group.....after 10 rounds it looks like there are 2 distinct groups on the same target. 

 

the total composite group size is not particularly bad....a few of the shots will routinely find the same hole.

 

I've closely watched him shoot for many years now, i don't observe a notable flinch or change in grip or any notable movement of the pistol. It's almost as though his sight picture has changed and then changes back all within the same 10 round magazine.

 

i hope this makes sense.

 

have other's seen this type of problem? any ideas on how to address it. thank you

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Hard to say. Could be 2-20 things going on. What gun? Ammo? Sight? Condition of the gun? Is it possible he is trading dominant eye to weak eye?

 

I would bench rest at 10 yards, you take 10 shots then let him shoot 10. 

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Posted (edited)

thanks

 

the pistol he shoots best is a 9mm Mastershop Sig x5 (or 6, i can't recall). it shoots great, i've shot it many times, very nice small groups. i've seen him do the same thing with 1911s and several other pistols as well even a .22lr pistol. I'm quite confident it's not the platform. they're for the most part  all standard adjustable sights. i think he's planning of purchasing a red dot sight in the coming months.

Edited by wanttolearn
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35 minutes ago, wanttolearn said:

thanks

 

the pistol he shoots best is a 9mm Mastershop Sig x5 (or 6, i can't recall). it shoots great, i've shot it many times, very nice small groups. i've seen him do the same thing with 1911s and several other pistols as well even a .22lr pistol. I'm quite confident it's not the platform. they're for the most part  all standard adjustable sights. i think he's planning of purchasing a red dot sight in the coming months.

 

Sounds like you both can shoot. Hope you figure it out. Ammo maybe? 

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I’m not an expert by any means but it sounds to me as if his focus is switching to the target (looking at the group) rather than the sights. If the issue is happening with various guns then equipment/ammo can be ruled out.

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I very much appreciate the comments

....i'll try to pay more attention to his grip and also see if i can gain insight as to whether he alternating his focus from target group to sights

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Also not an expert or a doctor, but it sounds like a vision thing to me.

 

I guessing he has determined his dominant eye.  Perhaps do the dominant eye test ten times to see if it remains the same or flips on occasion.

 

You might also try covering his weak eye while he shoots.

 

In my case my dominant eye is my weaker eye, so the non-dominant eye tries to dominate.

 

One other test might be to have him shoot a group using his weak hand on the trigger.  We tend to concentrate more when using the weak hand.

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Shots going low and left for a right handed shooter is a sign that he is milking the gun with his firing hand, causing shots to be pushed in that direction. Try telling him to relax his firing hand a bit, and squeeze harder with his support hand to compensate.

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If it was anything but "low left" for a right-handed shooter I would be puzzled. As it is, it's almost certainly that he gets the "good group" when he pays attention to the trigger pull and he gets the "low left" when he gets sloppy or tries to rush before his grip is refined enough that he can execute the "fast pull" without disturbing the sights. 

 

Here is a quick test. Have a timer, line up the sights and on buzzer just have him pull the trigger as fast as he can. It should be just the reaction time, no longer than 0.2s. See where the group is - if he has the correct grip, the group will be centered; if not, it will be low-left. If it's need low-left, you know what the problem is. If not, I would be really surprised...

 

There are running joke about low-left groups: Aim high right. Or, adjust the sights to compensate for low-left. (Obviously, these are jokes, do NOT do any of it.) 

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Target panic. 

 

He's anticipating/rushing the shot and likely increasing grip strength with his hand as he pulls the trigger which is what results in low left shots with a right handed shooter. 

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^^^^

Do this multiply times as it sounds like he's not doing it every time.  I use a revolver and load only some chambers, then spin the cylinder and close it with out looking.  Really shows up with a 6" revolver.

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24 minutes ago, Tunachaser said:

^^^^

Do this multiply times as it sounds like he's not doing it every time.  I use a revolver and load only some chambers, then spin the cylinder and close it with out looking.  Really shows up with a 6" revolver.

 

That works.  What works better for me, and I think would help the original poster, is to teach yourself to see the sight lift during recoil.

 

Once you do, you always see it when you disturb the sight prior to recoil and you can call your shots. 

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