9mm Case Gauging Issues

[bossk95]

I have been having some issues loading 147gr bullets.  I'm using SNS 147 round nose and Hornady 147 XTP and when I go to case gauge them just the rim is sticking out of the gauge.  The SNS are loaded to a COL of 1.135 and the XTP at 1.100.  When I switched to the XTP to try I didn't change the depth of my seat die with the first round just to see where it was at and it measured at 1.07 and it gauged just fine.  Could just seating a little deeper fix the issue? And is it something that could cause a concern?

[Rnlinebacker]

Flip it around and drop it in case first. If it goes down easy then it's your crimp

[rooster]

Does your round pass the plunk test in the barrel your going to use it in? If it does then you know with that round any that sticks out just a rim width will fit your gun. What your trying to do is make the round fit the gauge, when it might already fit your barrel. If it doesn’t fit your barrel then you have to find out why. Get a commercially made round  and duplicate the measurements. Get a SAMMI 9mm drawing and mimic those dimensions. The bottom line though is if it’s fits your barrel your gtg.

[bossk95]

45 minutes ago, rooster said:

Does your round pass the plunk test in the barrel your going to use it in? If it does then you know with that round any that sticks out just a rim width will fit your gun. What your trying to do is make the round fit the gauge, when it might already fit your barrel. If it doesn’t fit your barrel then you have to find out why. Get a commercially made round  and duplicate the measurements. Get a SAMMI 9mm drawing and mimic those dimensions. The bottom line though is if it’s fits your barrel your gtg.

Plunks fine in both my Shadow System and my 1911 barrel and wiggle a little in both, taking a closer look at the case gauge the ogive of the bullet is contacting the through hole of the gauge

[mtwain56]

13 hours ago, rooster said:

Does your round pass the plunk test in the barrel your going to use it in? If it does then you know with that round any that sticks out just a rim width will fit your gun. What your trying to do is make the round fit the gauge, when it might already fit your barrel. If it doesn’t fit your barrel then you have to find out why. Get a commercially made round  and duplicate the measurements. Get a SAMMI 9mm drawing and mimic those dimensions. The bottom line though is if it’s fits your barrel your gtg.

Any idea of solution for those that don't fit my barrel. I've heard something about a special Lee die. 

[MikeyScuba]

Push the case in and out a few times and see where it’s rubbing on the case.  What you might see is wear on one side due to the bullets going in crooked.  At least eliminate that possibility.  I never did figure out how to eliminate that in 40. Yet those that didn’t pass always shot fine (except the cracked cases) in practice.
 

never had issues with 9mm and yes I do use a Lee U die 

[HesedTech]

1 hour ago, mtwain56 said:

Any idea of solution for those that don't fit my barrel. I've heard something about a special Lee die. 

If you mean the Lee Factory Crimp Die, don't use it with anything other than FMJ bullets. It will swage coated and most plated bullets.

 

To the OP:

18 hours ago, bossk95 said:

I have been having some issues loading 147gr bullets.

If you haven't already done it, do a search of the 9mm forum because this issue has been covered multiple times. 

 

It always comes down to:

1. Maybe the crimp

2. 147s seat really deep and many head stamps bulge out because of the quick thickening of the case walls. 

3. Bullet not going in straight.

 

Plunk and use a different case gauge. Many volume loaders use the Hundo 100 rnd. gauge.

 

And again, do not use the Lee FCD to "fix" this problem.

[Sigarmsp226]

2 hours ago, MikeyScuba said:

Push the case in and out a few times and see where it’s rubbing on the case.  What you might see is wear on one side due to the bullets going in crooked.  At least eliminate that possibility.  I never did figure out how to eliminate that in 40. Yet those that didn’t pass always shot fine (except the cracked cases) in practice.
 

never had issues with 9mm and yes I do use a Lee U die 

Mickey Scuba’s point is worth reviewing - First thing that came to mind when I was reading th OP.... Also keep in mind you may need to “flip” or change out the insert you are using when you go from a round nose bullet to an XTP because the bullet nose profile might be causing the bullet to go in ever so slightly at an angle....

Edited March 6, 2021 by Sigarmsp226

[rooster]

The die that might help is the Lee u die, it gets down a little further to the rim. Brass that’s been fired in unsupported chambers will bulge at the base especially at the 6 o’clock position. I use the Redding I think it does a better job than the u die. 

[Steve RA]

Or you could use a pass thru die setup and really resize the entire case.

[noylj]

Plunk Testing:
The solution to chambering problems is to determine the cause:
Take the barrel out of the gun. Drop rounds in until you find one 
that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and 
case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in 
barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth a few times.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches in the ink on bullet--COL is too long
2) Scratches in the ink on edge of the case mouth--insufficient 
crimp
3) Scratches in the ink just below the case mouth--too much 
crimp, you're crushing the case
4) Scratches in the ink on case at base of bullet--bullet seated 
crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) 
or improper seating stem fit
5) Scratches in the ink on case just above extractor groove--case has a bulge the sizing die can't reach. Bulge Bust or toss case.

[AHI]

22 hours ago, bossk95 said:

Plunks fine in both my Shadow System and my 1911 barrel and wiggle a little in both, taking a closer look at the case gauge the ogive of the bullet is contacting the through hole of the gauge

I have opened up several gauges because of this. Same as the XL gauge for 40sw. Just open up the hole for the bullet not the case.

 

 

[jtaylor996]

On 3/6/2021 at 4:29 PM, HesedTech said:

If you mean the Lee Factory Crimp Die, don't use it with anything other than FMJ bullets. It will swage coated and most plated bullets.

 

I use this on coated bullets with no issues that I know of so far. But then again my crimp just removes any bell and is super light otherwise.

 

What problems have been caused by using this on coated bullets?

[4n2t0]

EGW gauge? If so, toss it in the trash to automatically fix all your gauging issues.

[bossk95]

14 hours ago, 4n2t0 said:

EGW gauge? If so, toss it in the trash to automatically fix all your gauging issues.

Yeah I know, it screwed me at Area 3 two years ago, haven't had a chance to replace it yet...

[rooster]

How can a gauge screw you? I’ve found the EGW gauges to be one of the tightest. So if a round fit the gauge it should fit the barrel.

[bossk95]

29 minutes ago, rooster said:

How can a gauge screw you? I’ve found the EGW gauges to be one of the tightest. So if a round fit the gauge it should fit the barrel.

I had a lot of ammo check good in it and had nothing but malfunctions.  I zeroed 3 of my first 4 stages from a complete lockup from ammo from my first magazine on each.  I borrowed a Mark 7 case gauge from a friend of mine and over half the ammo I brought with would not gauge in it i didn't have any issues the rest of the match after that.  I kept the ammo with the intent to reclaim the components and reload it and accidentally took it to the range with my Shadow Systems MR920 a couple weeks ago and it was the same nothing but problems

[IHAVEGAS]

21 hours ago, jtaylor996 said:

 

I use this on coated bullets with no issues that I know of so far. But then again my crimp just removes any bell and is super light otherwise.

 

What problems have been caused by using this on coated bullets?

 

Interested as well. For my 9mm wheel gun I'm shooting .358 coated bullets and load with the undersized Lee die, I get it that this likely does swage the bullet a bit but have not seen any sign that this is either a reliability or an accuracy issue. 

 

[HesedTech]

23 hours ago, jtaylor996 said:

What problems have been caused by using this on coated bullets?

 

The problem is the extra sizing ring on the FCD. As it goes down the bullet and case combo it resizes/swages the bullet. As the cartridge is removed from the die some brass will spring back causing some bullets to not only be undersized, but also loose in the case.  I've seen tumbling bullets and poor accuracy over and over with the FCD.

 

 

From Lee: "Lee 9MM LUGER Carbide Factory Crimp Die sizes the cartridge while being crimped so every round will positively chamber freely with factory like dependability. This die applies a taper crimp. "

 

There is a Lee taper crimp die which does not size the cartridge: https://leeprecision.com/taper-crimp-die-9mm.html

This one works great.

[HesedTech]

2 hours ago, bossk95 said:

I had a lot of ammo check good in it and had nothing but malfunctions.  I zeroed 3 of my first 4 stages from a complete lockup from ammo from my first magazine on each. 

 

Do you "plunk test?"

 

If not tis should always be part of your process. The technique has  been posted over a over here on BE forum.

[HesedTech]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Interested as well. For my 9mm wheel gun I'm shooting .358 coated bullets and load with the undersized Lee die, I get it that this likely does swage the bullet a bit but have not seen any sign that this is either a reliability or an accuracy issue. 

 

 

Wheel guns have different needs than auto feed.  If you haven't done it, pull some post reloaded bullets and check their diameter. You may find the swage factor of the FCD is wasting your .358 size.  

[rooster]

I’m not an expert but this is how a case gauge is supposed to work. There are two kinds of gauges, minimum and maximum. Most companies make their gauges to minimum chambers per SAMMI specs. They use the same dies that cut their barrel chambers to make their case gauges. Which is fine, but you better plunk test because not all barrells are minimum cut. A maximum case gauge is cut to maximum case Sammi specs. Don’t let the word maximum throw you off. A maximum case gauge specs are smaller than minimum chamber specs. So any round that fits a maximum case gauge has to fit any barrel that is cut to minimum chamber specs. L.E.Wilson case gauges are the only maximum gauges that I know of. When choosing a gauge you have to know that it is tighter than your chamber. Most problems occur from case bulge in 9mm. You can fix oal, and crimp relatively easy, but bulge is a little more difficult.

[rooster]

Here’s a test you can do. Size a case, check it with your gauge. If it passes, make a dummy round. Pull the bullet. If using a impact puller go easy so as not to make bullet bounce and hit or deform case. Gauge the case, if it still passes your problem is with the bullet oal. When they tell you to drill the step in the gauge your removing the chance that the bullet is touching the step causing your round not to gauge. Some of the coated rn and the truncated cone bullets especially in 147 cause you to load really short. They may plunk in your barrel but are still too long to gauge.

[rooster]

5 hours ago, bossk95 said:

I had a lot of ammo check good in it and had nothing but malfunctions.  I zeroed 3 of my first 4 stages from a complete lockup from ammo from my first magazine on each.  I borrowed a Mark 7 case gauge from a friend of mine and over half the ammo I brought with would not gauge in it i didn't have any issues the rest of the match after that.  I kept the ammo with the intent to reclaim the components and reload it and accidentally took it to the range with my Shadow Systems MR920 a couple weeks ago and it was the same nothing but problems

Something is amiss here. If your ammo checked good in the EGW but didn’t fit your barrel then your barrell is tighter than the EGW gauge. If your ammo fit the mark7 and worked in your barrel, then that gauge is tighter than your barrel. There’s nothing wrong with the gauges. You have to know that your gauge is tighter than your barrel in order to use them.

[jtaylor996]

1 minute ago, rooster said:

Something is amiss here. If your ammo checked good in the EGW but didn’t fit your barrel then your barrell is tighter than the EGW gauge. If your ammo fit the mark7 and worked in your barrel, then that gauge is tighter than your barrel. There’s nothing wrong with the gauges. You have to know that your gauge is tighter than your barrel in order to use them.

 

I would guess the problem was bullet profile vs rifling, rather than case dimensions.