Recoil springs and accuracy issues

[zzt]

11 hours ago, Bravo_Victor said:

Here is some video. Ignore the pajamas

 

That is very loose.  I could possibly live with the slide slop if the barrel locked up properly.  Yours doesn't.  If a conversion cone, you can replace it with a new one, or one custom sized to be .001" smaller than the ID of the slide.  If a bull barrel it will be tougher and more expensive.   Really, I'd send it to Limcat and see what they have to say about it.

[Bravo_Victor]

Ok so heres me pressing on the hood. There is a slight dip and it stays that way when you press it. Doesnt really seem to move much and i wouldnt call it “loose”

also pics of the barrel and bushing. The bushing locks in by rotating into a slot cut into the slide

 

 

 

[zzt]

1 hour ago, Bravo_Victor said:

The bushing locks in by rotating into a slot cut into the slide

 

Wow.  Haven't seen that in a dogs age.  That certainly makes it easy.  Measure the OD of the front of the barrel, then order a custom replacement from EGW that is .001" over.  Or go to Briley and get one of their spherical bushing/ring combos.  That is the least amount of work you can do.  If your barrel OD is .565" in the front, order the bushing with a .566" ID ring.  If it wears more in a year you can replace the ring with a smaller one.  Buy the drop-in if you can't fit the oversized bushing.

 

The slight dip when you press on the down on the hood means you need a longer link pin.  See what is stamped on your link.  Order the next longer.  If yours is a #3, order a #4, or a #3.5 from Cheely.  They are cheap, so I'd order both.  The reason it stays down is there is soo much slop in the barrel bushing.  Do both and you will see a big improvement in accuracy.  A heavier recoil spring and a hotter load will do the trick.

 

Bear in mind Briley's bushings are pretty thick up front, so you may have to thin it or reclock the comp.

 

I still recommend you send it back to Limcat for a look-see.  He can do both of those things, and correct anything else that may be off.

Edited March 6, 2021 by zzt

[Bravo_Victor]

35 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Wow.  Haven't seen that in a dogs age.  That certainly makes it easy.  Measure the OD of the front of the barrel, then order a custom replacement from EGW that is .001" over.  Or go to Briley and get one of their spherical bushing/ring combos.  That is the least amount of work you can do.  If your barrel OD is .565" in the front, order the bushing with a .566" ID ring.  If it wears more in a year you can replace the ring with a smaller one.  Buy the drop-in if you can't fit the oversized bushing.

 

The slight dip when you press on the down on the hood means you need a longer link pin.  See what is stamped on your link.  Order the next longer.  If yours is a #3, order a #4, or a #3.5 from Cheely.  They are cheap, so I'd order both.  The reason it stays down is there is soo much slop in the barrel bushing.  Do both and you will see a big improvement in accuracy.  A heavier recoil spring and a hotter load will do the trick.

 

Bear in mind Briley's bushings are pretty thick up front, so you may have to thin it or reclock the comp.

 

I still recommend you send it back to Limcat for a look-see.  He can do both of those things, and correct anything else that may be off.

Yeah i think im going to send it to him. I can work on CZ’s all day but 2011/1911 work is out of my realm of expertise. I appreciate all the info. 

[zzt]

21 minutes ago, Bravo_Victor said:

Yeah i think im going to send it to him. I can work on CZ’s all day but 2011/1911 work is out of my realm of expertise. I appreciate all the info. 

 

I'm just the opposite.  I wouldn't work on my CZ TS, but I build 1911s and 2011s.

[Bravo_Victor]

10 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

I'm just the opposite.  I wouldn't work on my CZ TS, but I build 1911s and 2011s.

Thats surprising, i find CZ’s to be relatively simple and 1911/2011’s complicated lol

[CHA-LEE]

Your video effectively shows that the gun is worn out and too sloppy in many different areas. You could use a heavier recoil spring and hope that it will be strong enough to pull all of the slop into a consistent reset position. But you will likely need a recoil spring weight heavy enough that it would defeat the purpose of trying to use minor PF ammo.

 

The biggest issue I see in the videos with regards to accuracy, is how much the hood of the barrel can be pushed down when its in the "Chambered" position. When a 1911/2011 barrel is fit properly you shouldn't have any perceivable downward movement of the barrel hood when you push down on it. This downward movement of the barrel hood is directly related to the slide lock pin, frame hole for the slide lock pin, and the lower lugs on the barrel. I usually start assessing the feasibility of replacing a barrel by measuring the slide lock pin hole diameter in the frame. On a brand new frame, the spec for the slide lock pin hole should be 0.200". The largest slide lock lever available on the market is 0.203" which is made by EGW. If the frame hole has been worn to the point of being bigger than 0.203" then the frame is done. If the frame hole has been worn into an oval shape then the frame is likely done as well. You shouldn't feed a new barrel to a frame with a slide lock pin hole bigger than 0.203" because you can't get a slide lock pin bigger than that. If the frame hole is smaller than 0.203" then you can measure the diameter of the slide lock pin to see how far off it's size is from the frame hole diameter. I have seen a lot of 1911/2011 guns come with a slide lock lever pin diameter of 0.197" then the pin hole in the frame is a 0.201". Then as the slide lock lever pin gets flats worn into it by the lower lugs on the barrel its not uncommon to end up with a total gap of 0.008" - 0.010" which may not seem like a lot, but it is absolutely enough to cause accuracy issues due to not locking up the barrel in a consistent location.

 

The other variable you are dealing with is the vertical slop in the frame to slide fit. That slop adds to the total slop associated with the barrel lockup. I am just winging numbers based on the movement seen in the videos but the compounded frame to slide slop, along with the barrel fit slop is probably totaling 0.040" - 0.050" of barrel lockup position slop. That is a crap ton of compounded barrel lockup slop which will absolutely lead to the poor accuracy you are seeing.

 

This gun is worn out from top to bottom. I hope that you didn't pay much for it, because its been used up and will need to be fully rebuilt (Frame, Slide, Barrel, etc). When guns get that worn out it rarely makes sense to fully rebuild them because it also doesn't make sense to reuse the ancillary parts. About the only thing you could potentially reuse on that blaster is the grip, and that might even be cracked. It wold make zero sense to try feeding that gun a new barrel or even a whole new upper.

 

I hate to say it, but this is a good reason why people shouldn't buy used guns without doing a detailed inspection on it beforehand to assess how "Used" is it.

[Bravo_Victor]

37 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Your video effectively shows that the gun is worn out and too sloppy in many different areas. You could use a heavier recoil spring and hope that it will be strong enough to pull all of the slop into a consistent reset position. But you will likely need a recoil spring weight heavy enough that it would defeat the purpose of trying to use minor PF ammo.

 

The biggest issue I see in the videos with regards to accuracy, is how much the hood of the barrel can be pushed down when its in the "Chambered" position. When a 1911/2011 barrel is fit properly you shouldn't have any perceivable downward movement of the barrel hood when you push down on it. This downward movement of the barrel hood is directly related to the slide lock pin, frame hole for the slide lock pin, and the lower lugs on the barrel. I usually start assessing the feasibility of replacing a barrel by measuring the slide lock pin hole diameter in the frame. On a brand new frame, the spec for the slide lock pin hole should be 0.200". The largest slide lock lever available on the market is 0.203" which is made by EGW. If the frame hole has been worn to the point of being bigger than 0.203" then the frame is done. If the frame hole has been worn into an oval shape then the frame is likely done as well. You shouldn't feed a new barrel to a frame with a slide lock pin hole bigger than 0.203" because you can't get a slide lock pin bigger than that. If the frame hole is smaller than 0.203" then you can measure the diameter of the slide lock pin to see how far off it's size is from the frame hole diameter. I have seen a lot of 1911/2011 guns come with a slide lock lever pin diameter of 0.197" then the pin hole in the frame is a 0.201". Then as the slide lock lever pin gets flats worn into it by the lower lugs on the barrel its not uncommon to end up with a total gap of 0.008" - 0.010" which may not seem like a lot, but it is absolutely enough to cause accuracy issues due to not locking up the barrel in a consistent location.

 

The other variable you are dealing with is the vertical slop in the frame to slide fit. That slop adds to the total slop associated with the barrel lockup. I am just winging numbers based on the movement seen in the videos but the compounded frame to slide slop, along with the barrel fit slop is probably totaling 0.040" - 0.050" of barrel lockup position slop. That is a crap ton of compounded barrel lockup slop which will absolutely lead to the poor accuracy you are seeing.

 

This gun is worn out from top to bottom. I hope that you didn't pay much for it, because its been used up and will need to be fully rebuilt (Frame, Slide, Barrel, etc). When guns get that worn out it rarely makes sense to fully rebuild them because it also doesn't make sense to reuse the ancillary parts. About the only thing you could potentially reuse on that blaster is the grip, and that might even be cracked. It wold make zero sense to try feeding that gun a new barrel or even a whole new upper.

 

I hate to say it, but this is a good reason why people shouldn't buy used guns without doing a detailed inspection on it beforehand to assess how "Used" is it.

I appreciate your input. I bought it off a guy who is a sponsored shooter and even has his own company selling retail parts. He said it had 20k sub minor and minor through it and while the tolerances were loose it WASNT worn out and function perfectly fine and was accurate. Guess this is the last time i do that. Im gonna send it to Limcat to see what he can do. 
 

or first ill try heavy recoil springs and see if i can get decent enough accuracy out of 145-150pf loads

Edited March 6, 2021 by Bravo_Victor

[Bravo_Victor]

36 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Your video effectively shows that the gun is worn out and too sloppy in many different areas. You could use a heavier recoil spring and hope that it will be strong enough to pull all of the slop into a consistent reset position. But you will likely need a recoil spring weight heavy enough that it would defeat the purpose of trying to use minor PF ammo.

 

The biggest issue I see in the videos with regards to accuracy, is how much the hood of the barrel can be pushed down when its in the "Chambered" position. When a 1911/2011 barrel is fit properly you shouldn't have any perceivable downward movement of the barrel hood when you push down on it. This downward movement of the barrel hood is directly related to the slide lock pin, frame hole for the slide lock pin, and the lower lugs on the barrel. I usually start assessing the feasibility of replacing a barrel by measuring the slide lock pin hole diameter in the frame. On a brand new frame, the spec for the slide lock pin hole should be 0.200". The largest slide lock lever available on the market is 0.203" which is made by EGW. If the frame hole has been worn to the point of being bigger than 0.203" then the frame is done. If the frame hole has been worn into an oval shape then the frame is likely done as well. You shouldn't feed a new barrel to a frame with a slide lock pin hole bigger than 0.203" because you can't get a slide lock pin bigger than that. If the frame hole is smaller than 0.203" then you can measure the diameter of the slide lock pin to see how far off it's size is from the frame hole diameter. I have seen a lot of 1911/2011 guns come with a slide lock lever pin diameter of 0.197" then the pin hole in the frame is a 0.201". Then as the slide lock lever pin gets flats worn into it by the lower lugs on the barrel its not uncommon to end up with a total gap of 0.008" - 0.010" which may not seem like a lot, but it is absolutely enough to cause accuracy issues due to not locking up the barrel in a consistent location.

 

The other variable you are dealing with is the vertical slop in the frame to slide fit. That slop adds to the total slop associated with the barrel lockup. I am just winging numbers based on the movement seen in the videos but the compounded frame to slide slop, along with the barrel fit slop is probably totaling 0.040" - 0.050" of barrel lockup position slop. That is a crap ton of compounded barrel lockup slop which will absolutely lead to the poor accuracy you are seeing.

 

This gun is worn out from top to bottom. I hope that you didn't pay much for it, because its been used up and will need to be fully rebuilt (Frame, Slide, Barrel, etc). When guns get that worn out it rarely makes sense to fully rebuild them because it also doesn't make sense to reuse the ancillary parts. About the only thing you could potentially reuse on that blaster is the grip, and that might even be cracked. It wold make zero sense to try feeding that gun a new barrel or even a whole new upper.

 

I hate to say it, but this is a good reason why people shouldn't buy used guns without doing a detailed inspection on it beforehand to assess how "Used" is it.

 

[zzt]

17 hours ago, Bravo_Victor said:

or first ill try heavy recoil springs and see if i can get decent enough accuracy out of 145-150pf loads

 

Unless you are going to fix the barrel link and bushing first, don't bother.  Send it to Limcat.  

[Bravo_Victor]

What type of bushing is this? Ive never seen a completely cylindrical bushing like this with no guide rod hooks. It goes inside the frame and rotated into a slot and theres a little spot weld that keeps it from rotating too far. Doesnt seem to be modified at all. 
 

[zzt]

It is custom modified to go in like a normal bushing, but stop when clocked properly.  That is what the spot weld is for.  It doesn't have 'hooks' because the gun has a reverse plug.  Plus, the comp would have to be modified.  Now that I see that, don't try to fix this yourself.  Send it to Limcat.

[Bravo_Victor]

50 minutes ago, zzt said:

It is custom modified to go in like a normal bushing, but stop when clocked properly.  That is what the spot weld is for.  It doesn't have 'hooks' because the gun has a reverse plug.  Plus, the comp would have to be modified.  Now that I see that, don't try to fix this yourself.  Send it to Limcat.

Yup gonna call him tomorrow. 

[CHA-LEE]

On 3/7/2021 at 5:15 PM, Bravo_Victor said:

Yup gonna call him tomorrow. 

 

So what was the prognosis from the Limcat people?

[Bravo_Victor]

On 3/25/2021 at 10:46 AM, CHA-LEE said:

 

So what was the prognosis from the Limcat people?

I just sent it out bc i was away from home for a few weeks. From our phone convo,  he said its definitely an old gun bc its an STI frame but from what i described to him he said the issues could definitely be causing accuracy problems. It could be something as simple as the bushing or more complicated. Hes gonna look over the whole gun and try to bring it as close to factory specs as possible 

[Bravo_Victor]

Well this doesnt sound good. 
 

“we have done the inspection on the pistol and it is definitely an older gun. It seems as if the lower and slide are still original, but the barrel and comp have been replaced. Other small parts seems to have been replaced as well. May I ask who you purchased this gun from?”

 

Considering the seller said everything looked original, wasnt alot of wear and was an accurate pistol, i guess i got robbed. Hopefully Limcat can do something to it that isnt going to hurt my wallet even more. 

[Bravo_Victor]

If anyone was curious, with a sigh of relief, Limcat finished the gun, made a new custom bushing and replaced the slide stop and its on its way back. Didnt cost me much and they say its MUCH more accurate. Thanks everyone for the help. Now to test it out when i get it

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

limcat 

[Bakerjd]

On 6/10/2021 at 5:41 AM, Bravo_Victor said:

If anyone was curious, with a sigh of relief, Limcat finished the gun, made a new custom bushing and replaced the slide stop and its on its way back. Didnt cost me much and they say its MUCH more accurate. Thanks everyone for the help. Now to test it out when i get it

Just be thankful it's a limcat. 95% of the so called gunsmiths doing race guns these days would have walked away or tried to tell you it jeeds thousands of dollars in parts and labor. Jonny (sp?) and the rest at limcat are some of the last few real gunsmith/machinist around. I have a wildcat he built and while I dont shoot it much it is an awesome gun.