Steel Cased Ammo

[Flea]

Sorry for the dumb question but the rules say you can use steel cased ammo if the projectile won't stick to a magnet. Why does it matter whether it sticks? If it sticks, it may be too hard and could ricochet off any steel? Thanks

[Lee Cabana]

To what rule book are you referring? USPSA rule 5.5.3 specifically allows steel case ammo. 

[mattx]

Yes if the bullet is magnetic it may have a steel core. It can ricochet and is also more likely to ding up the steel leaving small divots which further increase ricochet/spall.

[Flea]

15 minutes ago, Lee Cabana said:

To what rule book are you referring? USPSA rule 5.5.3 specifically allows steel case ammo. 

Last sentence of 5.5.3.

[rowdyb]

2 hours ago, Flea said:

Why does it matter whether it sticks?

Because you need a test that is easy to conduct, repeatable and has a pass/fail result. A magnet test does all these items.

A hardness, splatter or ricochet test does not.

[HCH]

I really don't know. They added that rule in the last couple years. 

[Intheshaw1]

5 hours ago, Flea said:

Sorry for the dumb question but the rules say you can use steel cased ammo if the projectile won't stick to a magnet. Why does it matter whether it sticks? If it sticks, it may be too hard and could ricochet off any steel? Thanks

If the projectile sticks to the bullet it's steel core ammo. This ammo can damage equipment and possibly increase the risk of ricochets.

 

Nothing like a range buying new steel targets to see them damaged after the first match. 

[SGT_Schultz]

Not to mention fire risk in some parts of the country

[rowdyb]

So is your question about the nature of the test or the nature of steel projectiles?

[Flea]

31 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

So is your question about the nature of the test or the nature of steel projectiles?

Not the test...but why a projectile that stuck to a magnet was bad. And the answer seems to be that means the projectile has some steel and can do crazy things when it hits steel.

[Schutzenmeister]

54 minutes ago, Flea said:

Not the test...but why a projectile that stuck to a magnet was bad. And the answer seems to be that means the projectile has some steel and can do crazy things when it hits steel.

 

BINGO!

[regor]

In practice this rule rules out Tula and Wolf ammo since they use bi-metal jackets (steel jacket plated with copper), but tons of people shoot that at matches. 

[gerritm]

This is a hard & fast rule in UML & 3-gun due to the velocities of .223/556 ammo. I have been checked many times. It will crater or go thru steel, but I have never seen it enforced in USPSA. Many many shooters use Tula & Wolf. Didn't think it applied to pistol rounds.

 

gerritm

[Intheshaw1]

8 minutes ago, gerritm said:

This is a hard & fast rule in UML & 3-gun due to the velocities of .223/556 ammo. I have been checked many times. It will crater or go thru steel, but I have never seen it enforced in USPSA. Many many shooters use Tula & Wolf. Didn't think it applied to pistol rounds.

 

gerritm

I think it's likely still hard on steel and can cause fire hazards.

 

And yep, 3 gun match 2 years ago we had brand new poppers and after their first match were sporting a handful of holes.....

[HCH]

1 hour ago, Intheshaw1 said:

I think it's likely still hard on steel and can cause fire hazards.

 

And yep, 3 gun match 2 years ago we had brand new poppers and after their first match were sporting a handful of holes.....

 

Were they mild steel poppers?

 

I have shot my personal steel with green tip, tula, wolf, monarch and everything else and never did so much as dent it with a 223. 

 

I saw a new shooter at a 3 gun match shoot every plate on a MGM plate rack with green tip. No dents or holes in anything. 

[Intheshaw1]

4 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

Were they mild steel poppers?

 

I have shot my personal steel with green tip, tula, wolf, monarch and everything else and never did so much as dent it with a 223. 

 

I saw a new shooter at a 3 gun match shoot every plate on a MGM plate rack with green tip. No dents or holes in anything. 

Advertised as AR500 so I would have thought it would be ok but I'm not the one who bought it so no idea if it was an 'ebay special's that was rifle rated but just cheap steel.

[pjb45]

855 and 109 5.56 have different cores.  Originally, it was thought 855 (green tip) had a rod that was design to penetrate clothing in the sand box where as 109 was to penetrate metal.

 

Someone once said 855 would not penetrate a radiator.  Do not know if it true.

 

I used 855 on normal steel poppers (out past 100 yrds) and on AR500 with no problem.

 

I know of one range that banned ammo over 4000 fps because it damaged their hanging steel.

 

Fire danger in the SW is a real problem.

 

Read the JP articles on steel case and how there have been changes in philosophy.

[gerritm]

Some of the steel cannot be dated or verified as to whether it is AR500 or not. I have seen the craters & holes blown in them. Who knows, why take a chance on tearing up the steel. Easier to just check with a magnet. Some matches will allow then on paper. I have some supposed tungsten tipped that I got from a LEO. Not sure if it is, no markings.

 

gerritm

[71Commander]

As someone that worked in an gun shop/indoor range the issue is fire. There is a lot of unburnt powder on the other side of the bench. Steel cases or bullets can spark, causing a fire. I seen it and extinguished them several times.

[Flea]

I started this thread b/c I have some Wolf 9mm steel cased ammo. I see nothing on the box that says the projectile has steel in it. Does anyone know if that Wolf ammo has steel in the bullet? If there is no steel in the bullet, then it's safe to shoot in a match on steel? Thanks

[Steve RA]

Try checking it with a magnet.

[Flea]

8 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

Try checking it with a magnet.

Someone said the bullet would stick to a magnet not because the bullet has steel in it, but because the steel case is causing the bullet to stick.

[HCH]

Just now, Flea said:

Someone said the bullet would stick to a magnet not because the bullet has steel in it, but because the steel case is causing the bullet to stick.

Nope. 

 

If the bullet has steel, the bullet will stick. 

[Eric802]

On 2/25/2021 at 10:58 AM, pjb45 said:

855 and 109 5.56 have different cores.  Originally, it was thought 855 (green tip) had a rod that was design to penetrate clothing in the sand box where as 109 was to penetrate metal.

 

Someone once said 855 would not penetrate a radiator.  Do not know if it true.

 

I used 855 on normal steel poppers (out past 100 yrds) and on AR500 with no problem.

 

I know of one range that banned ammo over 4000 fps because it damaged their hanging steel.

 

Fire danger in the SW is a real problem.

 

Read the JP articles on steel case and how there have been changes in philosophy.

Veering off-topic here, but SS109 and M855 are the same.  SS109 was, IIRC, the NATO designation for the projectile that, when it was adopted by the US, became M855.  The round was designed to more reliably penetrate Soviet helmets at longer distances (600+ yards) out of belt-fed MG's.  M855 will penetrate a radiator just fine.  It's not armor piercing, and at short distances regular M193 will actually penetrate better because of its higher MV.  

[Intheshaw1]

26 minutes ago, Flea said:

Someone said the bullet would stick to a magnet not because the bullet has steel in it, but because the steel case is causing the bullet to stick.

Put the magnet to the tip of the bullet and if it sticks then the bullet is steel, if not you're likely fine. If in doubt, shoot it somewhere that wouldn't be adversely impacted by a steel Bullet.