Is fast double tap possible without strength?

[SGT_Schultz]

5 hours ago, Tango said:

Here is a secret that not a lot of people here will admit to know or accept: gun and ammo does matter. You need to improve your grip technique and strength for sure, BUT, a finely tuned low bore axis gun shooting 125PF ammo does wonders to your splits! 

 

If you are using p320, consider getting a lower power recoil spring (11lb works well), the X5 tungsten grips, tungsten guide rod, and sand paper grip tape, and the grayguns competition trigger. You will see a dramatic and immediate improvement 

 

All that stuff helps if you know what you're doing.

 

The OP sounds like your typical brand new shooter who has no earthly idea how to grip a pistol.  None of that stuff is going to help him learn.

 

He needs one on one instruction.

 

And you forgot the grip lotion.

[B_RAD]

On 1/21/2021 at 4:25 AM, HepaHarpy said:

Hi. I'm a newbie running a Sig P320 Carry with stock bulbous grip module and 1 IDPA match experience.

 

I'm currently trying to do a fast double tap at 10 meters (10.9 yards) but unable let the sight track to POA efficiently.  I don't lose the grip but the gun does not always automatically come back to the POA. I tried to grip harder (just to the point before shaking) but my hands and arms would fatigued within 10 shots. 

 

I'm 174 cm/ 5' 8" tall and weigh 68 kg/ 150lbs btw. I dont hav massive forearms or anything. 

 

My question is that, with proper technique, is it possible to do fast double taps with average hand and forearm strength? or I just need to workout more. 

I'd change my focus to learning proper grip and fundamentals. If you're serious about improving in the shooting sports, you will probably come to the realization that "double taps" aren't the key to success. Might as well get to that point sooner. There can be unintended consequences to the double tap. I'd recommend knowing/seeing the required sight pic for each shot. 

 

I'd also ignore "advice" telling you that a lower bore axis is gonna transform your shooting.   

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by B_RAD

[B_RAD]

6 hours ago, Tango said:

Here is a secret that not a lot of people here will admit to know or accept: gun and ammo does matter. You need to improve your grip technique and strength for sure, BUT, a finely tuned low bore axis gun shooting 125PF ammo does wonders to your splits! 

 

If you are using p320, consider getting a lower power recoil spring (11lb works well), the X5 tungsten grips, tungsten guide rod, and sand paper grip tape, and the grayguns competition trigger. You will see a dramatic and immediate improvement 

Is that the secret?  

[SGT_Schultz]

53 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

I'd change my focus to learning proper grip and fundamentals. If you're serious about improving in the shooting sports, you will probably come to the realization that "double taps" aren't the key to success. Might as well get to that point sooner. There can be unintended consequences to the double tap. I'd recommend knowing/seeing the required sight pic for each shot. 

 

I'd also ignore "advice" telling you that a lower bore axis is gonna transform your shooting.   

 

 

 

 

Truth

[Tango]

yeah, we always see the sights in follow up shots and never do double taps in competition, no matter the target size and distance....i'd say slow down and get your hits 

[B_RAD]

31 minutes ago, Tango said:

yeah, we always see the sights in follow up shots and never do double taps in competition, no matter the target size and distance....i'd say slow down and get your hits 

It's amazing what you can see with practice!

 

It's also amazing on how easy it is to drop points on close targets when people try to double tap!

 

And who said anything about slowing down to get your hits? 

Edited January 24, 2021 by B_RAD

[Stepan]

On 1/21/2021 at 3:25 AM, HepaHarpy said:

I tried to grip harder (just to the point before shaking) but my hands and arms would fatigued within 10 shots. 

Keep doing that. 

[HepaHarpy]

Tried the bill drills, but from low ready (not timing the first shot), for the first time at 5 and 7 yards. And kept reminding myself to grip hard with the weak hand. I think it was just me forgetting to really grip with the weak hand. Here is the result. Not that fast but the sight was definitely coming back much quicker.

That 5th shot at 7 yards was a trigger freeze though. Lol. Thanks very much guys.

Edited January 25, 2021 by HepaHarpy

[B_RAD]

57 minutes ago, HepaHarpy said:

Tried the bill drills, but from low ready (not timing the first shot), for the first time at 5 and 7 yards. And kept reminding myself to grip hard with the weak hand. I think it was just me forgetting to really grip with the weak hand. Here is the result. Not that fast but the sight was definitely coming back much quicker.

That 5th shot at 7 yards was a trigger freeze though. Lol. Thanks very much guys.

Hey man, I notice that the gun and you strong hand move independently from your weak hand. Watch that video again. Your left hand is looks to be staying still while the gun recoils and moves.  Look at the trigger guard and how it comes up and off and when recoiling isn't touching your left first finger. That's not what you want. 

 

You want everything to move together. 

 

Also, you're standing completely vertical and your elsbows look completely locked out. It looks like the the recoil is rocking you back more with each shot. 

 

You might try leaning a little more forward at the waist, get a good wide stance, bend the knees a little and maybe unlock the elbows. This may take some trial an error to get in a solid comfortable stance but that will help a lot. 

 

Most of your hits are slightly low and left. This could be from gripping too hard with your strong hand and tensing up when you're trying to run the gun fast. That low and left grouping will only get worse as the targets get further.  

 

There's a very good forum called Practical Shoting Training Group that's got tons of information on how to do everything you need well. Every aspect of shooting in USPSA/IDPA. It's like $20 a month and you get tons of information. There's a video specifically on this issue. You can ask any question and you'llget replies from top shooters that is solid and correct info. Ben Stoeger, Hwansik Kim and Joel Park will answer any of your questions. Not to mention you can search all the videos. Best money you can spend. I really suggest going and checking that out. 

 

Also, it looks like you may be watching the hits as they're happening?  It's hard, almost impossible not to at those distances but if you're taking the time to process those hits and judge if they're good or not, that's doubling your split times. 

 

I'd focus on proper stance, grip, trigger control and would not even look at the timer for a while. If you're shooting factory ammo out of that gun(assuming it's all factory set up) that's also something you may want to look at later. 

 

Oh..... And get some grip enhancer. It helps a lot!

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by B_RAD

[HepaHarpy]

1 hour ago, B_RAD said:

I notice that the gun and you strong hand move independently from your weak hand. Watch that video again. Your left hand is looks to be staying still while the gun recoils and moves.  Look at the trigger guard and how it comes up and off and when recoiling isn't touching your left first finger. That's not what you want

does that mean I need a stronger weak hand grip? but i dont feel like losing the grip or anything. 

 

1 hour ago, B_RAD said:

There's a very good forum called Practical Shoting Training Group that's got tons of information on how to do everything you need well. Every aspect of shooting in USPSA/IDPA.

will look into that. thanks for sharing. 

 

1 hour ago, B_RAD said:

Also, it looks like you may be watching the hits as they're happening?  

No I wasn't :p. I focused on the front sight and actually saw the result after the last shot. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by HepaHarpy

[SGT_Schultz]

@HepaHarpy  Your support hand is IMO much too far forward on the gun.

 

I didn't start getting control of my pistols on recoil until I started applying the grip principles developed by the late Ron Avery and his crew at the Tactical Performance Center

 

I'd take a look at these, think about the principles being explained and demonstrated and then think how you can apply them to your gun and your hands

 

Also, like B-RAD said, flexing your elbows will give some cushion to the recoil.  It will also naturally point your pistol slight higher which will force you to rotate your wrists downwards, helping to lock them.

 

 

 

[B_RAD]

48 minutes ago, HepaHarpy said:

does that mean I need a stronger weak hand grip? but i dont feel like losing the grip or anything. 

 

will look into that. thanks for sharing. 

 

No I wasn't :p. I focused on the front sight and actually saw the result after the last shot. 

At that distance you need to be using target focus. You don't need to require the front sight focus for targets that close and easy. 

 

Each target has a required sight pic based on its difficulty.  Easier targets don't require the same detail/attention as more difficult one do. 

[HepaHarpy]

18 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

At that distance you need to be using target focus. You don't need to require the front sight focus for targets that close and easy. 

Usually does that but dont know why I did focus on the front sight today. Lol. 

[bimmer1980]

On 1/25/2021 at 1:29 PM, HepaHarpy said:

Tried the bill drills, but from low ready (not timing the first shot), for the first time at 5 and 7 yards. And kept reminding myself to grip hard with the weak hand. I think it was just me forgetting to really grip with the weak hand. Here is the result. Not that fast but the sight was definitely coming back much quicker.

That 5th shot at 7 yards was a trigger freeze though. Lol. Thanks very much guys.

 

You got a lot of good information from everybody in this thread. 

 

Maybe something will make it clicking for u.

 

There are some problems:

 

1. The gun moves in your support hand. You can see the trigger guard lift from your finger and you see the gun moving back. Watch your thumb.

2. Your shooting hand wrist is much more unlocked than your support hands. That doesn´t let your grip work together like a unit.

3. You don´t give that incoming recoil energy a chance to dissappear, if you lock your ellbows. You can see that all impact force running into your shoulders. That pushes you back. It´s also also a more violent slap to your grip.

4. Maybe get your stance more wide, right foot and your ass a tiny bit back. Just a bit.

 

To fix your grip, there are many solutions and techniques.

1. Use some kind of grip enhancer like progrip and griptape or epoxy

2. Use a leverage technique to hold your hand in place or a different technique like "push&pull"

3. If you use a conventional (US) style grip, your support hand should be able to handle a lot of the recoil, so you can hold your shooting hand pretty loose. Try to lock your right wrist but remaining more of a relaxed grip.

 

One example for getting some leverage in your grip is this, but there are many ways.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by bimmer1980

[SGT_Schultz]

@HepaHarpy How are your reloads?  How is your draw?  How are your transitions from one target to the next?

 

I'd worry about all that before I would worry about your splits

Edited January 29, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[MikeyScuba]

I have a friend obsessed with splits.  He’s stuck in B class.  Won’t listen to me neither so I made a point after a stage where his splits on the last target sounded awesome.  Result -Charlie delta (on a relatively close target)

Advice probably  didn’t stick but I tried.

Edited January 29, 2021 by MikeyScuba

[B_RAD]

Double tap is when someone gets a sight pic and decides to pull the trigger twice. The theory is that they can pull the trigger faster two times without having to aquire two sight pics and some think that if they pull the trigger fast enough the gun will not have recoiled enough and the hits will be fairly close, or close enough, together. 

 

First off, the gun fires and cycles faster than you can pull the trigger. 

 

Second, there's more going on to the recoil/sight tracking/gripping porcess of shooting. The gun just doesn't cycle and then return to the exact same spot by its self. Your grip and recoil control are involved. 

 

Here's what's likely to happen when someone tries to "double tap".  They decide they have a "good sight pic" they decide they're goinng to pull the trigger twice. They tense up, because that makes them feel like they're pulling the trigger super fast. At the same time they've probably started to move their eyes/focus to the next target, or because they've decided that they're done with that process, and their body starts to follow their eyes. So, between the tension which has almost certainly moved to their firing hand and that has almost certainly caused a very bad grip and trigger pull, and that has probably caused their shots to be off target, they're also moving their body because it follows the eyes and now they're dragging hits off the A zone. They end up with very bad hits. 

 

Now let's talk about splits. You can only pull the trigger so fast. For me it's about .13-.14. To do this I have to keep the tension out of my hands and my shoulders/upper body really. At certain distances, I can keep them in the A zone at that speed and I can see what's going on the entire time but the .15-.16 seems to be more repeatable when I try to really rail on a drill like this and I'm relaxed. I say drill because I practice this a lot in practice to get the control down. Saying that I don't consciously try to rail .15 splits in a match. I just go up and shoot the target and see the sights/dot/gun for every shot as required by each targets difficulty. A .20-.25 split is more than adequate for most close,easy,open targets and getting two A's trump trying to "double tap" to save/gain .05 sec. This is also true if you're splits are slower maybe because of skill and the splits are around .40. Rushing to gain .05 is dumb.  

 

If the issue is you can't shoot faster than .30-.40 regardless of target ease/distance, then  double tapping isn't going to help. You need to get better at shooting the gun fast by working on fundamentals and technique. 

 

 

Double taps are dumb. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by B_RAD

[MikeyScuba]

Where’s the like button?

[Farmer]

4 hours ago, MikeyScuba said:

Where’s the like button?

2X  right here!

Edited January 30, 2021 by Farmer

[9mikemike]

Thanks to OP and everyone who responded. I learned a lot from this thread. 

[Lastcat]

On 1/21/2021 at 8:28 AM, motosapiens said:

little girls can shoot fast splits, so yes, I think you can probably do it. However if you want to get good at shooting, you might be better off focusing on hitting stuff, and making quick transitions, etc....  don't get too carried away with splits because they are the least important thing. It's MUCH more important to shoot 2 aimed shots quickly at a 10-15 yard partial than to be able to double-tap a close target super fast.

 

This.

 

Best advice. I think we see people that are GM's and M's that are fast on the doubles and hope we can duplicate that. They've spent many hours firing and have very tuned guns/ammo. Getting fast in transitions is the best way to get a higher hit factor. Get those points and concentrate on the A zone. Hopefully it will burn into your muscle memory and eyes. Being a beginner, I had no idea what to expect at getting really good at this, still a low B, but making it work 1 Match at a time. It's not as easy as it looks, it takes time, practice, good mechanics, stage planning, tuned ammo, tuned gun, physical fitness, mindset, (man, I could go on and on), etc....  Stay with getting your hits as fast as you can and at your level. And move fast as you can smoothly. Or, pay for lessons. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Lastcat

[Ccampo1129]

Grip is everything. tighter is not necessarily better. I would say pay more attention to having the proper grip rather than squeezing harder.Worry less about a fast draw. Fast draw dont do no good if you have a bad grip.