HepaHarpy Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Hi. I'm a newbie running a Sig P320 Carry with stock bulbous grip module and 1 IDPA match experience. I'm currently trying to do a fast double tap at 10 meters (10.9 yards) but unable let the sight track to POA efficiently. I don't lose the grip but the gun does not always automatically come back to the POA. I tried to grip harder (just to the point before shaking) but my hands and arms would fatigued within 10 shots. I'm 174 cm/ 5' 8" tall and weigh 68 kg/ 150lbs btw. I dont hav massive forearms or anything. My question is that, with proper technique, is it possible to do fast double taps with average hand and forearm strength? or I just need to workout more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bimmer1980 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 51 minutes ago, HepaHarpy said: Hi. I'm a newbie running a Sig P320 Carry with stock bulbous grip module and 1 IDPA match experience. I'm currently trying to do a fast double tap at 10 meters (10.9 yards) but unable let the sight track to POA efficiently. I don't lose the grip but the gun does not always automatically come back to the POA. I tried to grip harder (just to the point before shaking) but my hands and arms would fatigued within 10 shots. I'm 174 cm/ 5' 8" tall and weigh 68 kg/ 150lbs btw. I dont hav massive forearms or anything. My question is that, with proper technique, is it possible to do fast double taps with average hand and forearm strength? or I just need to workout more. Sure it is possible. Try building your grip with more leverage instead of just gripping hard. You will develop the muscles you need over time. Your wrists should be locked, without tensing your shooting hand up. Thats not easy. Elbows/Arms slightly bend and relaxed. Shoulders relaxed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Well, you are shooting a pistol with a pretty high bore axis. 10 yards is also the distance where I start to need to see my sights for every shot. Most shooters with a decent grip can get away with a double tap (one sight picture, two trigger pulls) out to 7 yards. I think it's a better practice, especially for new shooters, two get an acceptable sight picture for every shot. Here is a good example. Several of my co-workers recently purchased STI 9mm pistols and during our last training/qualification, most of them where double tapping steel at 10 yards and pretty impressed with themselves. Then I moved them back another 5 yards and they missed that second shot nearly every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HepaHarpy Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 13 minutes ago, bimmer1980 said: Sure it is possible. Try building your grip with more leverage instead of just gripping hard. You will develop the muscles you need over time. Your wrists should be locked, without tensing your shooting hand up. Thats not easy. Elbows/Arms slightly bend and relaxed. Shoulders relaxed. i'm currently have the strong hand's middle to pinky grip hard while pulling trigger to stabilize the pull, Mike Seeklander's technique. It's quite solid. The weak hand is not easy though. I don't feel comfortable with it and dont quite understand where to apply force with regards to fingers. I tried Bob Vogel's weakhand grip but feel that the wrist is very awkward. So I cant the wrist less, it's better but still fatigues easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HepaHarpy Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 15 minutes ago, RangerTrace said: Well, you are shooting a pistol with a pretty high bore axis. 10 yards is also the distance where I start to need to see my sights for every shot. Most shooters with a decent grip can get away with a double tap (one sight picture, two trigger pulls) out to 7 yards. I think it's a better practice, especially for new shooters, two get an acceptable sight picture for every shot. My current practice is two acceptable sight picture cuz the range is in the city with about 4-5 meters bunker behind targets. I cant do one sight two taps cuz I tracked the sight after my first shot and found that it jumped up too far to be considered safe to tap the second shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 To me it sounds like you just need to shoot more. IMO you don't need to have a hurkulean grip but you do need to grip the gun hard. The host of this site has mentioned in the past that he was a mechanic by trade when he first started shooting and felt that helped him in grip strength. Mike Seeklander is rather vocal about gripping the gun hard. There are a lot of factors to shooting fast. It's timing, it's practice, and (IMO) most important is that it's seeing fast. The faster I see things, the faster I shoot. I'm shooting a P320 as well and I think with a little practice it does come right back to POA. And then as has been mentioned 10 yards is starting to get to a range where you can't just blindly shoot - which you aren't so that' s good. Especially in IDPA where dropped points are SO penalizing. I'd rather shoot two A's with a .25 split then an A and a C with a .18 split (I know - captain obvious). That does bring up one thing that I've heard Max talk about. While he shoots fast I don't believe he's ever been super focused on fast splits on targets. And if my memory is right his logic was simply this - if he can shoot .16 splits and the rest of the field is shooting .19 splits he picks up .03 seconds per target. So if there are ten targets he picks up .3 seconds on a stage. It's just not worth the risk of shooting that much faster. Whereas he felt (at the time) that picking up time in movement, or transitions, was well worth the effort. That's not really the point of your post but might be something to think about as you train. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 I am 64kg and 170cm. Yes you can shoot guns quickly without being a monster or of considerable size. It is difficult and done differently but you can do it. Those of us who are lighter, smaller or weaker need to make up for it with even more perfect technique in our grip and stance. What our whole body is doing to be the type of shooting platform where the gun returns to the same spot every time and quickly. It is in my opinion an unreasonable expectation of a new shooter to shoot at 10 yards or meters, taking one sight picture and two very quick trigger pulls and have both hits be good. Advice is worth what you pay for it so here you go, A. Fine tune your stance with a good forward weight bias. B. Take some video shooting and see where you're breaking down. Wrists? Fingers? Waist? Then correct it. C. Look at different cadence and sight tracking drills to improve your timing and tracking of the gun. To me, Bill drills at various distance would be great. Or Ben's different Doubles drills. And finally D. Continue to build up your shooting muscle endurance. Here is a video of me shooting the drill 4Aces. It requires me to shoot the shots as what you describe as a double tap but it shot at 7 yards traditionally. I am shooting 0.15 and 0.16 splits. My hits are all A hits. So you can see someone of your size do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 little girls can shoot fast splits, so yes, I think you can probably do it. However if you want to get good at shooting, you might be better off focusing on hitting stuff, and making quick transitions, etc.... don't get too carried away with splits because they are the least important thing. It's MUCH more important to shoot 2 aimed shots quickly at a 10-15 yard partial than to be able to double-tap a close target super fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 48 minutes ago, motosapiens said: It's MUCH more important to shoot 2 aimed shots quickly at a 10-15 yard partial than to be able to double-tap a close target super fast. 100% true! And we've done the math to prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) I may get blown up for this but, fast split have almost nothing to do with a super strong grip. As an example last weekend I was shooting a gun with a very light trigger and twice after reloads I had a messed up grip and the gun bump fired as it moved around in my crappy grip, the first occasion resulted in 2As on a 7is yard target the second drove down a popper with 2 hits about 2" apart both times the splits were in the .05 region, I would not want to shoot like that all the time but it proves that splits and grip strength are not a 1-1 relationship. Having a relaxed firing hand is very important to being able to split fast, so gripping to just shy of shaking is likely detrimental to shooting quickly unless you have learned to separate your strong and weak hand gripping. regardless of grip strength the gun will rise and fall as you fire it, learning to get it to go back where it came from is the most important skill in regards to grip, where and how far it goes are mostly meaningless if it ends up where it started. Edited January 21, 2021 by MikeBurgess add content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 I'd always heard fast splits was about your ability to get off the trigger. Straight from JM's ears to mine. To me it sounds like the OP wants to know how to be able to get one sight picture at 10 meters and then pull the trigger as fast as they are capable and have the bullets impact reasonably close to each other. A lot of things are elements of that whole. If you want to focus on actions rather than outcomes then the OP needs to look at grip, stance, sight tracking, trigger control, timing and so on. Tons of stuff if you want to just wale away at 10 yards targets "double tapping" them all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 10 hours ago, HepaHarpy said: Hi. I'm a newbie running a Sig P320 Carry with stock bulbous grip module and 1 IDPA match experience. I'm currently trying to do a fast double tap at 10 meters (10.9 yards) but unable let the sight track to POA efficiently. I don't lose the grip but the gun does not always automatically come back to the POA. I tried to grip harder (just to the point before shaking) but my hands and arms would fatigued within 10 shots. I'm 174 cm/ 5' 8" tall and weigh 68 kg/ 150lbs btw. I dont hav massive forearms or anything. My question is that, with proper technique, is it possible to do fast double taps with average hand and forearm strength? or I just need to workout more. I would say the answer is yes it is possible. But if you're a newbie with only one match under your belt there may be better things to work on the pulling the trigger as fast as you can at 10 yards. Especially in IDPA where points down hurt so much, splits probably aren't what's going to hold you back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, HepaHarpy said: Hi. I'm a newbie running a Sig P320 Carry with stock bulbous grip module and 1 IDPA match experience. I'm currently trying to do a fast double tap at 10 meters (10.9 yards) but unable let the sight track to POA efficiently. I don't lose the grip but the gun does not always automatically come back to the POA. I tried to grip harder (just to the point before shaking) but my hands and arms would fatigued within 10 shots. I'm 174 cm/ 5' 8" tall and weigh 68 kg/ 150lbs btw. I dont hav massive forearms or anything. My question is that, with proper technique, is it possible to do fast double taps with average hand and forearm strength? or I just need to workout more. Watch this shooter carefully. You will notice that very, very few of his shots past 5 - 7 meters are what one could consider a "double tap" Listen to his cadence (shooting rhythm) and how it changes depending on distance and target difficulty. But I will tell you that while one doesn't need to be a huge, jacked up guy to shoot well fast, upper body fitness does make a difference without a doubt. Get some grip strength springs and do push ups, pull ups, chest presses, and exercises that will strengthen your upper arm, lower arm, and upper back muscles. Then there's ridiculous skill and talent....... Edited January 22, 2021 by SGT_Schultz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Single stack guy is very talented. I'd like to see the hits on the CO guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, RangerTrace said: Single stack guy is very talented. I'd like to see the hits on the CO guy. Matt Hemple 94.75% of possible match points https://practiscore.com/results/new/126686 Edited January 22, 2021 by SGT_Schultz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HepaHarpy Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 11 hours ago, j1b said: There are a lot of factors to shooting fast. It's timing, it's practice, and (IMO) most important is that it's seeing fast. The faster I see things, the faster I shoot. I'm shooting a P320 as well and I think with a little practice it does come right back to POA. And then as has been mentioned 10 yards is starting to get to a range where you can't just blindly shoot - which you aren't so that' s good. Especially in IDPA where dropped points are SO penalizing. I'd rather shoot two A's with a .25 split then an A and a C with a .18 split (I know - captain obvious). That does bring up one thing that I've heard Max talk about. While he shoots fast I don't believe he's ever been super focused on fast splits on targets. And if my memory is right his logic was simply this - if he can shoot .16 splits and the rest of the field is shooting .19 splits he picks up .03 seconds per target. So if there are ten targets he picks up .3 seconds on a stage. It's just not worth the risk of shooting that much faster. Whereas he felt (at the time) that picking up time in movement, or transitions, was well worth the effort. That's not really the point of your post but might be something to think about as you train. J I see that the sight’s coming back but it was slow. I can hardly get the split under .50 second at 7 meters, sometimes 1 second (i’m really really a newbie not just in IDPA). At least, I wanna be able to do .20 constantly at close range. 11 hours ago, rowdyb said: I am 64kg and 170cm. Yes you can shoot guns quickly without being a monster or of considerable size. It is difficult and done differently but you can do it. Do you work on your hand and arm strength a lot? Your video is surreal. 11 hours ago, rowdyb said: Advice is worth what you pay for it so here you go, A. Fine tune your stance with a good forward weight bias. B. Take some video shooting and see where you're breaking down. Wrists? Fingers? Waist? Then correct it. C. Look at different cadence and sight tracking drills to improve your timing and tracking of the gun. To me, Bill drills at various distance would be great. Or Ben's different Doubles drills. And finally D. Continue to build up your shooting muscle endurance. I mostly noticed that my strong hand wrist could not its angle after the shot. Havent seen the weak hand side though. Cant seem to lock the wrist to the point that it wouldnt bend. I’ll try the drills. I mostly did the low shot count drill cuz ammo is expensive here, 20$ for 50 round. I shot once and see if the sight drop to the point of aim. 9 hours ago, MikeBurgess said: fast split have almost nothing to do with a super strong grip. Does strong grip make the lower stay flatter and thus the sight is ready faster? Guys, dont go to moving and transition yet. I’m really new to the point that even at 5 meters I can hardly get .50 second split Alphas. I dont even know if my grip is correct. Lol. I just noticed today that high forward grip that I tried to mimic Robert Vogel made my weak hand awkward becuz his glock has a different grip angle than my P320 so I cant the weak hand less and it’s less tiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 34 minutes ago, HepaHarpy said: Guys, dont go to moving and transition yet. I’m really new to the point that even at 5 meters I can hardly get .50 second split Alphas. I dont even know if my grip is correct. Lol. I just noticed today that high forward grip that I tried to mimic Robert Vogel made my weak hand awkward becuz his glock has a different grip angle than my P320 so I cant the weak hand less and it’s less tiring. first things first.... don't stress. you're not going to learn to shoot M level splits overnight, but yah, you do need to be able to shoot faster than .5 second at 5 meters. I taught a little girl to get started in shooting a couple years ago, and I tried to make her journey a little shorter than mine. One of the drills we worked on was shooting multiple shots at close range (more than 2 anyway, usually 4-5 depending on the mag capacity). Oftentimes shooting only 2 shots (especially for a noob) is not helpful because you may never even see the sights on the 2nd shot. Heck, you might not see them on the first shot, because noobs (and experienced shooters) often blink on the first shot. But shooting 4 or 5 or 6 shots gets your mind used to it and if you concentrate on seeing what the sights are doing while you do that, you may find that after the first shot, you start to see more of what is happening. If you're not used to the idea of gripping hard with your weak hand, you'll need to think about it alot at first. However hard you are gripping, you need to grip alot harder. It is often not as much hand/forearm strength as it is habit. With my student she was at least used to holding onto a 2stroke motorcycle in national-level off-road racing, so she didn't struggle as much with grip as some. Really tho there's no way to fix your problem without repetition. You might want to ask someone good at your local matches to give you some grip advice, but people's hands are different and guns are different, so i'm not sure there is a 'correct' way to grip a gun.... but there are probably several wrong ways, lol. Anyway, I advise you to set aside a hundred rounds of ammo, and shoot it 5 rounds at a time, at a target 5 yards away (or maybe just into a dirt berm), and try to pay attention to your grip, and to what the sights are doing, and force yourself to pull the trigger uncomfortably fast. If you can get a good shooter to spend 10 mins helping you with this, it may make some of the concepts clearer. hopefully you can see the facebook vid of a little girl in her first CO match with a 320. https://www.facebook.com/tresa.worrell/videos/10219342389530324/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HepaHarpy Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 6 hours ago, motosapiens said: But shooting 4 or 5 or 6 shots gets your mind used to it and if you concentrate on seeing what the sights are doing while you do that, you may find that after the first shot, you start to see more of what is happening. If you're not used to the idea of gripping hard with your weak hand, you'll need to think about it alot at first. However hard you are gripping, you need to grip alot harder I guess Bill Drill is a must then. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 13 hours ago, RangerTrace said: I'd like to see the hits on the CO guy. That guy is typically on point. Had he been able to shoot Nat's I'd of expected a top 10 from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 8 hours ago, Racinready300ex said: That guy is typically on point. Had he been able to shoot Nat's I'd of expected a top 10 from him. If he's hitting what he's aiming at, at that speed, I'd say he's a genuine badass. Obviously it's hard to judge distance from that perspective, but it looked like very hard shots. He could probably keep up with solid open shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 21 hours ago, HepaHarpy said: Does strong grip make the lower stay flatter and thus the sight is ready faster? More like a strong grip makes the guns move less making, it easier to track and predict, also making sloppy trigger manipulation move the gun less. the secret is that fast splits are shot by predicting where the gun is going to be pointed and then fining it when it should be there, you also watch the sight picture so yo know what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 Or more subtle.... think about keeping the frame of the gun super still with your grip and ignore the rest. just let the slide do what it is supposed to do when you shoot the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 Here is a secret that not a lot of people here will admit to know or accept: gun and ammo does matter. You need to improve your grip technique and strength for sure, BUT, a finely tuned low bore axis gun shooting 125PF ammo does wonders to your splits! If you are using p320, consider getting a lower power recoil spring (11lb works well), the X5 tungsten grips, tungsten guide rod, and sand paper grip tape, and the grayguns competition trigger. You will see a dramatic and immediate improvement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 9 minutes ago, Tango said: Here is a secret that not a lot of people here will admit to know or accept: gun and ammo does matter. You need to improve your grip technique and strength for sure, BUT, a finely tuned low bore axis gun shooting 125PF ammo does wonders to your splits! If you are using p320, consider getting a lower power recoil spring (11lb works well), the X5 tungsten grips, tungsten guide rod, and sand paper grip tape, and the grayguns competition trigger. You will see a dramatic and immediate improvement Also, grip size matters. Try to find a grip size that fits your hands well. I use the largest possible, because it has more to hold on to, and the distance between beavertail (grip tang) and trigger is larger, which results in a straight 90 degree trigger finger for me. Find what works the best for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 (edited) oh, finally, try the gas-pedal accelerator-pedal thumb rest (or whatever it is called), helps hugely with recoil reduction and control (yes, I said reduction!), and also helps you balance the gun on horizontal axis, helping eliminate that disgusting low left shot pattern (assuming you are right handed). there are a lot of things people wont admit here, and will tell you its all training and technique. while this is mostly true, the correct equipment helps you perform better, and this game is all about extracting the most performance out of our abilities Edited January 23, 2021 by Tango more data Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now