Czechmate vs. 2011 for Open

[DirkD]

2011s dominate Open for a reason, they are better guns, the checkmate is ok but not as good as a 2011.

[regor]

41 minutes ago, DirkD said:

2011s dominate Open for a reason, they are better guns, the checkmate is ok but not as good as a 2011.

 

Big Custom Shop propaganda! 

[DirkD]

15 hours ago, regor said:

 

Big Custom Shop propaganda! 

it is a fact, look at who is shooting what at nationals, they do an equipment survey, when has a shooter with a checkmate ever won nationals?

[DirkD]

On 1/15/2021 at 10:30 PM, kneelingatlas said:

I've been shooting CZ Open guns for seven years, I that time I've owned a half dozen 2011 Open guns in an attempt to make a fair comparison.  I ended up selling all my 2011s.  Read into that whatever you like

the people that are winning nationals in open are shooting 2011s, read into that whatever you like.

how many people in the top 50 at open nationals shot a CZ?

JJ is shooting a beretta now, but I am pretty certain everyone else is shooting 2011s.

 

[Jamese35]

Going off of how many people shoot nationals isn't a great comparison. How many people shoot cz, tanfo, sphinx, and others at the world shoots? 2011 are widely in US because the evolution of the 1911. Over seas though cz and cz clones are more prevalent.

[DirkD]

1 minute ago, Jamese35 said:

Going off of how many people shoot nationals isn't a great comparison. How many people shoot cz, tanfo, sphinx, and others at the world shoots? 2011 are widely in US because the evolution of the 1911. Over seas though cz and cz clones are more prevalent.

last open equipment survey I could find from USPA (2018) didn't even have a CZ listed, so they are so few being used in the United states they didn't even show up in the equipment survey

How many people from the United States used a CZ at the world shoot in Open?

The United States dominated the last World Shoot, over 50 Gold Medals IIRC, no one from the United States shot a CZ Open gun.

Are we shooting overseas or in the united states?

Whenever I have been at Nationals I have never seen a contender with a CZ, sure a b shooter here and there but no top tier shooters.

They aren't bad guns but the 2011 is a much better gun.

[zzt]

I think it is daft to make your equipment choices based on what someone shoots at Nationals.  I also think it is silly to recommend it.  What do you actually know about it?  Nada!  There are a bazillion (yes, that is a real number) variations on 2011s, and every one make the gun feel different, especially in Open.  So what do you do?  Gamble and pick shooter one's brand and hope yours come out the same?  Or shooter two's gun.

 

I've extensively shot five Open guns and every single one of them handled differently and required different loads.  I'm really happy with what I shoot now because I went through that process.  So rather than preach to the OP about buying what the Pros use, I'd rather he go to the club and ask to shoot several different Open guns to get some idea of what will work for him.  Offer to buy lunch or pay for the ammo used.  I've never had a request to try a gun turned down.

 

BTW, knowing that the winner shot X brand custom Open gun tells you nothing, because you don't know what is inside it and the equipment surveys don't tell you.  That is the equivalent of shooting 124gr bullets because that's what a majority does.  Following that advice I'd be shooting 124s instead of 115s.  Fortunately I had the sense to test lots of things out.

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

I think it is daft to make your equipment choices based on what someone shoots at Nationals.  I also think it is silly to recommend it.  What do you actually know about it?  Nada!  There are a bazillion (yes, that is a real number) variations on 2011s, and every one make the gun feel different, especially in Open.  So what do you do?  Gamble and pick shooter one's brand and hope yours come out the same?  Or shooter two's gun.

 

I've extensively shot five Open guns and every single one of them handled differently and required different loads.  I'm really happy with what I shoot now because I went through that process.  So rather than preach to the OP about buying what the Pros use, I'd rather he go to the club and ask to shoot several different Open guns to get some idea of what will work for him.  Offer to buy lunch or pay for the ammo used.  I've never had a request to try a gun turned down.

 

BTW, knowing that the winner shot X brand custom Open gun tells you nothing, because you don't know what is inside it and the equipment surveys don't tell you.  That is the equivalent of shooting 124gr bullets because that's what a majority does.  Following that advice I'd be shooting 124s instead of 115s.  Fortunately I had the sense to test lots of things out.

this,

 

I have shot several different kinds of open guns, Multiple 2011, Caspian, Glock, Tanfoglio large and small frame, CZ. they are all different. turns out I do not like the current popular Ti comp ported mid length 2011s as much as I do a non ported heavy steel comp gun, nothing wrong with them just not my favorite, I like my old Caspian but the Tanfoglio with a custom non ported barrel and comp is pretty close second, but thats, me my friends like their setup better than mine.

[kneelingatlas]

On 1/15/2021 at 7:35 PM, mniels said:

Did you find that you needed to have any trigger work done?

None

[858]

CZ must have used my long lost twin as the hand model to design their guns. The controls fit my hand size and finger lengths perfectly. I've shot plenty of 2011's and just never liked them very much. I have a TSO that I have put 40K+ rounds through and bought a CM last fall. I have them set up as identical as possible and can move between each painlessly. The CM has certainly taken more effort to make reliable than the TSO but that mainly revolved around the ammunition. Mag tuning was fairly simple and the instructions can be found in the CZ tech forum.

[a matt]

On 1/18/2021 at 12:21 PM, DirkD said:

it is a fact, look at who is shooting what at nationals, they do an equipment survey, when has a shooter with a checkmate ever won nationals?

CZ are not American made guns 2011’s are, your comparison would be skewed because of the fact.  CZechmate and CZ’s are known best for winning in IPSC countries. 

  Devils advocate. Now that others are cloning the 2011 for the IPSC market,  CZ dominating IPSC open may change over time. 
Plus, I don’t think Eric Grauffel has an issue running the CZechmate. 

Edited January 21, 2021 by a matt

[clw42]

I've shot and owned both the Czechmate and 2011's.  I prefer 2011's simply for the ability to customize to my fit and preferences.  Nothing wrong with the CZ at all, and if there were more aftermarket parts available, I might have stuck with it. 

[a matt]

Eric and CZ are in process of updating the Czechmate.  

[regor]

5 hours ago, a matt said:

Eric and CZ are in process of updating the Czechmate.  

 

Based on what they've done with the TS2 I doubt it will be any meaningful changes. There absolutely are improvements that could be made to the Czechmate (compatible with 2011 optic mounts, more secure magwell with better blending, options for shorter/longer reach triggers, better mags, a safety more similar to 2011 so that more folks can comfortable use it), but I doubt they are going to do any of that. 

[a matt]

I can’t say what they have in the works.
 I’m just sharing the info from an email with  EG.  

[zdali]

11 hours ago, regor said:

 

Based on what they've done with the TS2 I doubt it will be any meaningful changes. There absolutely are improvements that could be made to the Czechmate (compatible with 2011 optic mounts, more secure magwell with better blending, options for shorter/longer reach triggers, better mags, a safety more similar to 2011 so that more folks can comfortable use it), but I doubt they are going to do any of that. 

To my untrained eye S2 frame looks like a TS machined on newer CNC tooling. It would make sense that the TS2, and by extension Czechmate2 gets re-tooled onto updated line. Hand fitting is expensive these days, even in eastern Europe. Kinda hoping that they slap a titanium comp on the TS2 and call it a day

[JDIllon]

I’m definitely pro CZ CM. I’ve been shooting my CM for 5 years and it just keeps shooting anything. I go to a shoot every weekend and see all these other guns having all kinds of problems. Buy a CM and enjoy shooting or buy something else and enjoy trying to get it to shoot rite! Just my .02. JD 

[a matt]

2 hours ago, JDIllon said:

I’m definitely pro CZ CM. I’ve been shooting my CM for 5 years and it just keeps shooting anything. I go to a shoot every weekend and see all these other guns having all kinds of problems. Buy a CM and enjoy shooting or buy something else and enjoy trying to get it to shoot rite! Just my .02. JD 

Maybe you see all those other guns having issues because 99% of open gun are 2011s. I’m glad your CZ works, so do most 2011’s.  I think 2011’s get into having issues cause there are endless options and people like to change things on their 2011’s and most 2011 parts need to be fitted.  Where CZ parts are the same with

very few options (Sebo) for change.  There’s pros and cons both good with both platforms.  

Good shooting to you. 

[Phoenix1977]

On 1/18/2021 at 6:21 PM, DirkD said:

it is a fact, look at who is shooting what at nationals, they do an equipment survey, when has a shooter with a checkmate ever won nationals?

Take of your star spangled blinders 

[Doge]

I'd do the 2011 as it's easier to get parts and people to work on them. 

[CocoBolo]

I haven't owned the CZ open gun, but love my Shadow for production.  I started shooting open with Tanfo, went to STI and have missed that Tanfo ever since.  What I liked about it was the weight and the solid feel but it didn't fit my hand.    In my fleet of STI Open Guns I have Bull and Cone guns, when it comes to steel challenge I prefer the lighter weight of the Cone Comp gun and in USPSA I prefer the heavier Bull Barrel gun.  This is all subjective if I really wanted to have a lighter gun I would shoot my Glock Open Gun, which I only shoot when I am suffering from over confidence, aka the spray syndrome, it slows me down and makes me focus on hits. 

 

In an Action Shooting major match, aka they called it the nationals, I won the stage shooting  STI and 2nd was a Glock, I never saw a Glock Open gun that ran, but his did.  In the man on man shootout I lost to the Glock.  The secret to a Glock Open gun running is 140-150pf load, My personal load for steel is 5.8gr of AutoComp with a 124JHP.  It will shoot major but its a wild ride.

 

My suggestion is put a dot on your gun and run it and see how the dot works for you.   Shooting minor the comp is kind of like tits on a bore hog, more of a fashion accessory than functional.   It isn't like the good old days, when it was 9 mm up, the low times are RFPO and RFRO the invasion of the rim fire, I have mine and it has won before, only because it 100% reliable.

 

I'm working on a Mossberg Plinkster rifle, just to drive all the Volquartsen rifle guys nuts.  A $200 gun vs a $2000 gun should be fun. 

[JeffJeffers]

Most of the comments are pretty good although just saying "every person I know who bought a CM was unhappy with it" is not very helpful as we have no idea about: 1) the sample size, 2) specifics of what they were unhappy about, 3) what they were using the CM for.

 

I enjoy a variety of good pistols but I am not a busy competitive shooter. I own two 9mm CZ Tactical Sports and one in 40SW (all original TS's of the 2005-2018 manufacture) and recently acquired a new CM. The TS' have the same trigger design except the trigger shoe is polymer whereas the CM trigger is aluminum. I own one of the old original SVI (Infinity) frames with a 45acp Colt slide and Kart barrel that was built and used in competition by a gunsmith friend. I also have a 45acp Hi-Cap 1911 Rock Island upgraded with Wilson Combat and a few other custom internals.

 

All of the pistols are SA and very reliable.

Triggers: The 2011 have the justly famous 1991 design and the CZ's use a hinged design. The 1911/2011 family of pistols and the CZ SA triggers are worlds better that any other pistols I own and I like light, crisp breaking SA triggers. Frankly I find very little difference 'feel' in the triggers on these guns other than the RI custom that has a trigger set up specifically for my finger draw length. I might give a tiny very slight nod to the custom 1911/2011's for crispness and reset. it surprises me very much that no one has mentioned is that all of the CZ's SA TS triggers are easily adjustable for both take up and reset, this feature is stock from the factory and it does make a difference how you set it up. Reliability for all is very good with a small nod to the CZ's. This must necessarily exclude the CM as I just got it. Likewise the accuracy for the CM as it is new to me and I need a good range day to put it in my Ransom Rest and shoot the hell out of it. When sighted in and shooting at 25 years I would give the nod to the CZ's - HOWEVER this is apples to oranges, 45acp to 9mm, a huge difference. Also note that the CM comes with a "minor" barrel and the "major" comped barrel along with the factory included C-More Railway frame mounted RDS.  I find the grip shape of the CZ's fits my huge hands better than any other pistols I shoot, BUT just to confuse everyone a bit more... the custom lengthened trigger I had installed on my Rock Island double stack Hi-Cap 1911 feels great simply due to the long pull I get from that... I might give the 2011 pistols the nod due to their ease of installing the longer trigger shoes on them (I have only done this on the RI). BTW the gunsmith who installed the trigger on my RI gave it a 2.5lb weight which after a couple years of wear resulted in a hammer follow issue! I had a second local gunsmith adjust it to a more conservative 3lb weight. All of the CZ's have out of the box factory triggers at 1.75 - 2 lb weight.

 

After all of the above I would say that the CZ TS's are definitely my personal favorites, I always shoot them best. When I pick up any of the CZ TS's and shoot them, I feel like I am suddenly a much better shooter. I especially enjoy the increased snap of the 40SW TS and don't really notice the increased recoil. I am still learning the ways of my 2011 & my Hi-Cap RI but enjoy them very much. Take my comments as those of an adequate recreational shooter, not a busy competitive shooter and one who enjoys shooting steel and targets at 25+ years with iron sights. Ask me in a couple months about the RDS Cm shooting some major loads etc. I hope this info helps people considering both styles.

[zzt]

On 3/10/2021 at 10:21 AM, CocoBolo said:

Shooting minor the comp is kind of like tits on a bore hog, more of a fashion accessory than functional.

 

Nonsense.  I routinely convert my backup Open gun from major to minor and back.  I have been using factory 115 TMJ @ 1145fps to save primers.  Soft, but some muzzle rise.  I went back to 124 plated over 6.8gr 3N38.  Really soft and the muzzle doesn't move.  Comps work for major and minor.  How well only depends on how much gas you feed them.

[sc68cal]

On 1/15/2021 at 12:00 AM, Rnlinebacker said:

Brazos short block open kit and build it out for just a little more than the checkmate. I'm enjoying mine in major pf currently

 

I agree with rnlinebacker, the Brazos shortblock is a heck of a deal

[NorthwestGuy]

I had a Czechmate. Loved the gun, after I sent the mags to Grams Engineering to get them tuned. The stock mags nosedive without help.

I recently purchased a Bul Armory SAS ll UR and prefer it. The grip is a bit wider and the grip safety took a bit to get used to. Overall I find the Bul to be a better pistol by all of the metrics. I added some MBX mags. The price is almost the same, but a Bul will take more time to get into your hands. Florida company office is great.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by NorthwestGuy