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Slow Titegroup 38 Special loads


SGT_Schultz

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At 4.2 gr, you're already over max charge listed on Hodgdon's site. You're velocities seem too low, somethings not right. Maybe you chrono is off, or not enough crimp, or testing in cold temperatures. How's your crimp, and what temp did you chrono in?

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2 hours ago, Postal Bob said:

At 4.2 gr, you're already over max charge listed on Hodgdon's site. You're velocities seem too low, somethings not right. Maybe you chrono is off, or not enough crimp, or testing in cold temperatures. How's your crimp, and what temp did you chrono in?

4.3 grains is the max for 38 Special +P, so I'm just under that and that is why I ask before going higher.

 

I think crimp is enough, take a look.  It was around 38 - 40 degrees when I chrono'd them.

 

AFAIK the chrono is fine, I checked it a week ago with a rimfire rifle and the velocity displayed was right in the ballpark for the ammo's listed MV.  I'll re-check it though.

IMG_20210115_164841.jpg

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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i have a couple of 627's. one the cyl gap is .004 the 2nd is close to .010.

The 010 gun chronos's noticeably lower in FPS.  

with the same load. 

Lots of variables with revo's and loads gun to gun

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3 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

i have a couple of 627's. one the cyl gap is .004 the 2nd is close to .010.

The 010 gun chronos's noticeably lower in FPS.  

with the same load. 

Lots of variables with revo's and loads gun to gun

 

I'll borrow a feeler gage on monday and take a look at the gap on mine.

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My opinion is if you want .357, then use .357 brass.  I don't see the need to stress 38SP brass.

 

Everglades recommend using jacketed bullets for load data, to a max velocity of 1200fps.

 

Hodgdon has 5.4 - 6.1 for the XTP.  My opinion here is if you can get that amount of powder in a 38 case, why would you want to risk pressure spike into the realm of OUCH?

 

DON'T DO IT!

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2 hours ago, RePete said:

My opinion is if you want .357, then use .357 brass.  I don't see the need to stress 38SP brass.

 

Everglades recommend using jacketed bullets for load data, to a max velocity of 1200fps.

 

Hodgdon has 5.4 - 6.1 for the XTP.  My opinion here is if you can get that amount of powder in a 38 case, why would you want to risk pressure spike into the realm of OUCH?

 

DON'T DO IT!

 

I'm not talking about going full retard into magnum territory for jacketed bullets.

 

I'm talking about the low end of Hodgdon's TG 357 load with 158 cast LSWC, which starts at 4.5 grains.  So 4.5 - 4.6.

 

On second thought before I try that I'm gonna try some loads with Vectan Ba9 which is the only other handgun powder I have on hand.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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21 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

It was around 38 - 40 degrees when I chrono'd them.

And therein is the reason why. Titegroup is very temperature sensitive. I've had loads in .40 S&W which in normal weather, made 168PF. But at 38° failed to make PF. And in 90°+ weather, they feel like I'm shooting a magnum.

Don't try to develop a load with Titegroup at very cold temperatures, unless you're  only going to shoot them in cold weather. That same load at 70°-80° will go over pressure.

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2 hours ago, Postal Bob said:

And therein is the reason why. Titegroup is very temperature sensitive. I've had loads in .40 S&W which in normal weather, made 168PF. But at 38° failed to make PF. And in 90°+ weather, they feel like I'm shooting a magnum.

Don't try to develop a load with Titegroup at very cold temperatures, unless you're  only going to shoot them in cold weather. That same load at 70°-80° will go over pressure.

 

Interesting.  I recently switched to TG (like in the last month) after burning through 8 lbs of CFE Pistol (easy PF maker but dirty).

 

The odd thing is that TG seems to behave like it should, even in colder temps, in 9 mm.  I tested my 9 mm TG load at 3.8 and 4.0 grains topped with a 125 gr conical and got almost exactly book speeds (1080 fps at 3.8 and a hair under 1100 at 4.0) in a 45 degree day.  Those speeds track almost exactly where the Hodgdon manual says they should be speed-wise.

 

I just got back from testing Vectan Ba9 at 4.6, 4.8, and 5.0 grains and was again way the hell slow in the 627.  5 grains averaged around (going from memory) 650 fps.....WTF.

 

The next test batch I have loaded with Ba9 for tomorrow is right at the top of the range for that powder with five samples each at 5.6, 5.8, and 6.0 grains.  We shall see........

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17 minutes ago, RePete said:

The difference in the loads for 9mm and 38SP is the air space between the powder and the bullet base.

 

I was thinking it had to be that.

 

If Ba9 doesn't work I'm gonna have to find something slow and bulky.  CFE Pistol and HS6 have always worked for me speed-wise but man they are dirty.......

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Here's what I got

 

.38 Special: Titegroup 3.8gr, 158gr Berry's Bullet

 

Digital Link

Temperature:N/A   

Pressure:N/A   

 

Bullet Weight:158.0   

Power Factor Average:114   

Power Factor Low:111   

Power Factor High:117   

 

Number of Shots:7

Minimum:706

Maximum:745

Spread:39

Average:721

Standard Deviation:12


 

#VelocityFt/lbsPower FactorDate

7 715 179.34 112 2/8/20 9:55 AM

6 722 182.87 114 2/8/20 9:55 AM

5 721 182.36  113 2/8/20 9:55 AM

4 729 186.43 115 2/8/20 9:55 AM

3 715 179.34 112 2/8/20 9:55 AM

2 745 194.70 117 2/8/20 9:55 AM

1 706 174.85 111 2/8/20 9:55 AM

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10 hours ago, Farmer said:

When I want higher vel out of 38 sp I load with Silhouette. Gives good vel and accuracy. HS6 has always been good in the 38 too. 

 

Thanks.  I'm leaning towards a slower burning powder as well.  Trouble is s#!t's tough to find right now.  Only thing I could find last night online was IMR Blue.

 

I held off buying until I get a chance to chrono my latest batch of loads with Vectan Ba9.  That batch went right to the very top of the load range as my first run with Ba9 starting low was another disappointment.

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12 hours ago, ysrracer said:

Here's what I got

 

.38 Special: Titegroup 3.8gr, 158gr Berry's Bullet

 

Digital Link

Temperature:N/A   

Pressure:N/A   

 

Bullet Weight:158.0   

Power Factor Average:114   

Power Factor Low:111   

Power Factor High:117   

 

Number of Shots:7

Minimum:706

Maximum:745

Spread:39

Average:721

Standard Deviation:12


 

#VelocityFt/lbsPower FactorDate

7 715 179.34 112 2/8/20 9:55 AM

6 722 182.87 114 2/8/20 9:55 AM

5 721 182.36  113 2/8/20 9:55 AM

4 729 186.43 115 2/8/20 9:55 AM

3 715 179.34 112 2/8/20 9:55 AM

2 745 194.70 117 2/8/20 9:55 AM

1 706 174.85 111 2/8/20 9:55 AM

 

I had to run 4.2 grains of TG in a 627 to get that same velocity.

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Most 38 special factory loads don't even make minor(125)PF. So are you surprised you're having a hard time making pf with your reloads? Which is why in IDPA Stock Revolver division, they have a min 105PF requirement. Otherwise most shooters using a 3"-4" stock revolver in 38 special, would never make a 125 pf.

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19 minutes ago, Postal Bob said:

Most 38 special factory loads don't even make minor(125)PF. So are you surprised you're having a hard time making pf with your reloads? Which is why in IDPA Stock Revolver division, they have a min 105PF requirement. Otherwise most shooters using a 3"-4" stock revolver in 38 special, would never make a 125 pf.

 

Yep, that's why I load .38 Short Colt. You can use 9mm load data and go up or down from there.

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Ill say this,

 

first reload at your own risk follow advice off the internet at your own risk

 

1st The 38 spl has a stupid low max case pressure because some of the guns chambered in it were made before modern manufacturing could catch up. most modern guns are either a 357 magnum like you 627  or like your 64 made just like one but chamber reamed slightly shorter. so trying to stay under the 17.500ksi  pressure in a gun made for a 35,000ksi round may not be as necessary as you may believe

 

2 unless you have a stash of old balloon head 38 special brass from the turn of the century there is no difference in case strength between your special and magnum brass

 

3 there are many competition shooters running 38 short colts with tight group and faster powders making minor power factor without issue, the short colt brass is literally cut down 38 special brass ( I have been told Starline only forms 1 case for 375, 38 Spl, 38 LC, 38 SC they just cut and stamp them as needed)

 

4 revolvers are weird I have 2 627s they chrono about 10 PF different, the slow one has less cylinder gap than the fast one, also each of the 8 chambers chronos differently.

 

5 If you like TG do the math figure out what you need to add to get your slow gun to make minor and carry on.

 

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6 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Ill say this,

 

first reload at your own risk follow advice off the internet at your own risk

 

1st The 38 spl has a stupid low max case pressure because some of the guns chambered in it were made before modern manufacturing could catch up. most modern guns are either a 357 magnum like you 627  or like your 64 made just like one but chamber reamed slightly shorter. so trying to stay under the 17.500ksi  pressure in a gun made for a 35,000ksi round may not be as necessary as you may believe

 

2 unless you have a stash of old balloon head 38 special brass from the turn of the century there is no difference in case strength between your special and magnum brass

 

3 there are many competition shooters running 38 short colts with tight group and faster powders making minor power factor without issue, the short colt brass is literally cut down 38 special brass ( I have been told Starline only forms 1 case for 375, 38 Spl, 38 LC, 38 SC they just cut and stamp them as needed)

 

4 revolvers are weird I have 2 627s they chrono about 10 PF different, the slow one has less cylinder gap than the fast one, also each of the 8 chambers chronos differently.

 

5 If you like TG do the math figure out what you need to add to get your slow gun to make minor and carry on.

 

 

Appreciate your common sense input.  I was aware of point #1 and as an engineer I agree with points 2 through 4.

 

Before I go that way I am going to try Vectan Ba9 charges near and up to the top of the book range to see what that gets me.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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1 minute ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I was aware of point #1 and as an engineer I agree with points 2 through 4.

 

Before I go that way I am going to try Vectan Ba9 charges near and up to the top of the book range to see what that gets me.

thus my preamble

 

good luck with Ba9, I have never used it so I cant help you there. 

 

 

 

 

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