USPSA RO certification

[Shootingaggie]

How many of your clubs have offered this? Looking on the USPSA homepage, this costs a club $800 to offer. This is an expense my club would most likely not want to cover. I routinely RO, but had never even been offered the opportunity to get certified. Just found out about it by reading forums here. Just curious your opinions on this. 

[ChuckS]

The classes that I have been to charged a nominal fee. If you have a classroom and range available, the cost is not bad if you can drum up 20 or so students. If your club is going to run Level 2 or 3 matches, covering some or all of the cost is a great way to build a local RO corps. 

[RadarTech]

7 minutes ago, Shootingaggie said:

How many of your clubs have offered this? Looking on the USPSA homepage, this costs a club $800 to offer. This is an expense my club would most likely not want to cover. I routinely RO, but had never even been offered the opportunity to get certified. Just found out about it by reading forums here. Just curious your opinions on this. 

This is pretty normal...

so here is what most people do— and what I recommend..

 

first find out if you have enough interest...

Say20-25 people.. if the answer is yes—
To cover the cost you would need $800 plus transportation for the instructor- either a rental, or someone to drive him/her around, and meal cost for the instructor..

say 2 nights in a hotel— consider $100 a night for arguments sake.. the. $50ish a day for food..

$300 plus they $800.. and then find classroom space.. and see if your club will let you use the range..

 

now you are in for about $1100... at 25 students you would be about $50 a head...

 

ask your AD and SC if they have any funds to help you.

also ask your club if they have any insurance discounts for having certified range staff...

 

if you have other clubs nearby, reach out to them.. and see what they can help with...

 

in the end, it is a good class— and can help both you as your club....

 

I hope this helps!

 

[Hdiamond]

Basically you charge whatever you need to. USPSA charges $40/head plus lodging and a reasonable per diem for the instructor. 
 

For newly affiliated clubs that meet some requirements for activity they also offer a special program where the first 20 spots are at no charge from USPSA. 

My club just had that program so we took $40/head across the board and what we saved from the new club program covered the rest easily. 
 

Another older club locally is doing a class and charging $65 each. 

[driver8M3]

Current class schedule:

https://uspsa.org/seminars

 

 

[Sarge]

Several good points made so far. You can also do some research and see if an RMI lives in the area. They can do “local” classes that don’t cost as much. You can also host RO seminars in conjunction with nearby major matches that cost less. 
Several ways to crack this egg.

[driver8M3]

I just read this recently, but had trouble remembering where I read it...finally found it.

 

https://www.facebook.com/theuspsa/posts/3915789071766581

[MikeBurgess]

this has always been one of my complaints with USPSA, I think that one thing they should do is provide free RO classes, making people pay so they can officiate our sport is dumb

 

rant off

[Sarge]

37 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

this has always been one of my complaints with USPSA, I think that one thing they should do is provide free RO classes, making people pay so they can officiate our sport is dumb

 

rant off

Mine too. My arguments got me nowhere. I even suggested getting certain CRO’s certified as CROI’s so we can certify level I RO’s locally. Talk about getting shut down!! They are going to get their money!!

[Thomas H]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

this has always been one of my complaints with USPSA, I think that one thing they should do is provide free RO classes, making people pay so they can officiate our sport is dumb

 

I agree....but yet I don't.

 

Speaking as someone who drive to another state originally to get my RO class (definitely not at a discount), paid to take the CRO course online, and recently paid for the RM certification, I'd really like it if the RO class didn't cost, and that there were more of them.  That would be awesome.

 

The problem is (IMO)----think of all the people you know who try to be good ROs and CROs who still make small mistakes every once in awhile.  Are those people prepared to teach the rules?  (Noting also that just because someone knows the rules doesn't mean they can teach them...providing information and teaching information are two different things.) 

 

Having a specific RMI corps made up of people who have studied how to teach the class to best make sure that new ROs can do the best possible job with the best understanding of the rules, using a curriculum that gets checked and re-vetted periodically, really does make a difference in terms of having ROs who know the rules and can apply them correctly  Sure, there are some folks who have certification who really aren't that good at it, and we definitely have some ROs who don't keep current on the rules.  But nonetheless, currently if an RO is certified, they'll probably do a solid job with the rules, on average.

 

Having less-experienced and less-knowledgeable people teaching the class---means a worse transfer of knowledge.  Might it be "good enough"?  I don't know.  I do know that everyone already probably knows at least one RO that you'd rather not have, because he isn't really that good, and I'm betting we'd have more of them and more confusion about rules or rule application among otherwise good ROs if we had less-experienced instructors.

 

And if you have instructors coming in for a class, then it costs.  Whether that cost (now that you bring your own rulebook and don't get a notebook) is still correct for the class (because it hasn't been adjusted, I don't think) that's a different story.  But at the very least, you've got to pay for the instructors.

 

So....I think it is more complicated than "we want more ROs, the class should be free" and requires more knowledge and understanding of instructors than "we could just train up some CROs to teach ROs".

 

Opinions may vary. 

 

 

Edited to add:  I'll note that in my area (middle of the U.S., in a section covering two states but with only 12 clubs) there is still fairly good access to RO classes.  I think that people near me had a chance at no less than 4 RO classes in this past year within a 3-hour or so drive.  So...there's that.  Aren't more RO classes being held now than in the past?

Edited January 12, 2021 by Thomas H
Comment about class availability...

[Thomas H]

Just remembered:  USPSA also has a "new club" deal for RO classes where if the new club has held a certain number of matches in the past year (or something like that) they either get a free RO class or a VERY discounted class.  Something like that. 

 

Ah, found where it is discussed:
"There are several ways you may defray the cost of a seminar. First, you may request, with the Area Director’s (or Match Director if it’s not an Area Championship Match), permission to have the seminar in conjunction with their level III match. These Level III associated seminars are conducted at half price up to the first 20 students. Go Here for more information.
 

Additional financial assistance in hosting a seminar can be attained by obtaining an Area Marketing Plan NROI Subsidy. Under this provision, a club can host a seminar by taking advantage of available Area Marketing Plan funds. (A copy of the guidelines can be found <NROI Area Marketing Plan Subsidy Guidelines>. Note that AMP funds are usually limited, and will not subsidize the entire cost of the seminar.). New USPSA clubs may also request a free new club seminar. Information on that can be found here. Please note that any seminar requested under these programs must be listed as “Public” and available to any USPSA member in good standing."
 

https://uspsa.org/pages/nroi/seminar

 

On the page itself are links to more information.  So, there are a couple of ways for clubs to defray the cost.  I know some clubs actually pay for part of it for their members.  After they, they are the ones collecting match fees.  A couple of extra dollars in match fees per entry over a year's worth of matches will probably cover much of a course fee, and telling people they have to pay $20 for the class isn't much of an issue.

 

I realize that is NOT the fix for the "classes shouldn't cost in the first place!" actual topic of the thread, but I thought in case people didn't know, there ARE ways to reduce the class cost, particularly for new clubs!

 

 

 

[Sarge]

17 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

I agree....but yet I don't.

 

Speaking as someone who drive to another state originally to get my RO class (definitely not at a discount), paid to take the CRO course online, and recently paid for the RM certification, I'd really like it if the RO class didn't cost, and that there were more of them.  That would be awesome.

 

The problem is (IMO)----think of all the people you know who try to be good ROs and CROs who still make small mistakes every once in awhile.  Are those people prepared to teach the rules?  (Noting also that just because someone knows the rules doesn't mean they can teach them...providing information and teaching information are two different things.) 

 

Having a specific RMI corps made up of people who have studied how to teach the class to best make sure that new ROs can do the best possible job with the best understanding of the rules, using a curriculum that gets checked and re-vetted periodically, really does make a difference in terms of having ROs who know the rules and can apply them correctly  Sure, there are some folks who have certification who really aren't that good at it, and we definitely have some ROs who don't keep current on the rules.  But nonetheless, currently if an RO is certified, they'll probably do a solid job with the rules, on average.

 

Having less-experienced and less-knowledgeable people teaching the class---means a worse transfer of knowledge.  Might it be "good enough"?  I don't know.  I do know that everyone already probably knows at least one RO that you'd rather not have, because he isn't really that good, and I'm betting we'd have more of them and more confusion about rules or rule application among otherwise good ROs if we had less-experienced instructors.

 

And if you have instructors coming in for a class, then it costs.  Whether that cost (now that you bring your own rulebook and don't get a notebook) is still correct for the class (because it hasn't been adjusted, I don't think) that's a different story.  But at the very least, you've got to pay for the instructors.

 

So....I think it is more complicated than "we want more ROs, the class should be free" and requires more knowledge and understanding of instructors than "we could just train up some CROs to teach ROs".

 

Opinions may vary. 

 

 

Edited to add:  I'll note that in my area (middle of the U.S., in a section covering two states but with only 12 clubs) there is still fairly good access to RO classes.  I think that people near me had a chance at no less than 4 RO classes in this past year within a 3-hour or so drive.  So...there's that.  Aren't more RO classes being held now than in the past?

  Opinions certainly do vary. I have seen some horrible instruction from an RMI. He may have been new, may have had a brain fart, who knows. It looks to be pretty solid now. But it’s not a sure thing quality instruction will always be received.

  Flying people all over the country including Hawaii and Alaska seems to be quite an expense for a basic RO class.

  

  

[Nathanb]

I hosted one. And won’t do it again. It’s a clusterf*#k to manage and is so much work. I’d rather run a level2 than put on an ro class again 

[Shootingaggie]

With instruction and training going online in every industry across the country now, why does still have to be led by a traveling instructor? Is it really too difficult to lead in an online setting with instructional video aids, etc?

[BillChunn]

8 hours ago, Shootingaggie said:

With instruction and training going online in every industry across the country now, why does still have to be led by a traveling instructor? Is it really too difficult to lead in an online setting with instructional video aids, etc?

In the RO class that I attended, the second day was spent on the range.  The instructor told certain people to do specific things, like leave your safety off on a Open division gun and then holster it.  When they were being run by the student, the class got to observe if the "infraction" was caught.  Others were told to just shoot the stage.

 

With stages becoming a bit more difficult to observe, this "timer in hand, competitor actually sending rounds downrange" excercise overcame that initial fear of running someone and making a mistake.  It also taught the little things like where to stand for a left-handed shooter to observer the gun coming out of and returning into the holster. 

 

This type of excercise is not going to be possible for a class that is held completely online.   

 

BC

 

[p7fl]

Re On Line:

Great idea !  Sure it can be done remote. I took the class in the 90s and the CRO class in 2002. But, have watched the 2nd day on the range a bunch of times over the years as it goes on during a regular match.

The actual shooting part is of very limited importance and managing the shooter with proper commands being the key.

Good thinking !.

[Zincwarrior]

You could actually do "shooting" scenarios online. Have a shooter doing his thing and the instructor go through what was wrong, where to best stand etc. etc.  Frankly its a good thought for a best practices tips videos. 

 

As an SO/RO (depending on match), I'd love some sort of best practices session or videos like that. 

[Shootingaggie]

Even a one day online and the second day tied to an event. I just feel those kind of innovations are what keep an organization growing.  

[Thomas H]

10 hours ago, Shootingaggie said:

With instruction and training going online in every industry across the country now, why does still have to be led by a traveling instructor? Is it really too difficult to lead in an online setting with instructional video aids, etc?

 

Speaking as someone who is required to take online training on a monthly basis, the amount of knowledge transfer from an online class is extremely poor compared to an in-person class.  (People who are taking college classes online will be able to tell you the same thing.)  That's speaking also as someone who is a teacher.  If you are attempting to teach some fairly complex things where people need to remember specifics, and more importantly, apply them in varying situations, in-class practice and interaction makes a difference.

 

And as someone pointed out, actually DOING the RO job (the learning process that occurs on the second day where everyone is the RO, the scoring RO, and the shooter) is really, really important.  Having people's first time at this being in an actual match is generally a bad idea...

 

It is odd that people had trouble hosting the class. My club has hosted one every year for the past eight years or so (possibly more, but I'm not positive) and it has been straightforward every time. 

 

Arrange with NROI for a class date/instructor, get a venue, advertise the class, they sign up on the NROI site, pick up the instructor and get them to the class site....the one time we've had problems was when one of our transport people misunderstood something and the instructor had to wait a little bit for his ride.

 

Was the problem with paperwork?  Finding a venue for teaching?  Transportation?

 

I agree that flying people to Hawaii is probably costly.  But...the local club doesn't pay that cost, USPSA does.  Right? 

 

I like the idea of online shooting scenarios for training purposes.  I think that NROI is trying to get to that point with their monthly blog poll question, then later article.

 

 

[Sarge]

46 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

And as someone pointed out, actually DOING the RO job (the learning process that occurs on the second day where everyone is the RO, the scoring RO, and the shooter) is really, really important.  Having people's first time at this being in an actual match is generally a bad idea.

THERE ARE GENERALLY ENOUGH SEASONED CRO/RO AROUND TO HELP.

46 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

It is odd that people had trouble hosting the class. My club has hosted one every year for the past eight years or so (possibly more, but I'm not positive) and it has been straightforward every time. 

SAME HERE. IT’S PRETTY EASY. THE WORST PART FOR ME IS AS GETTING PEOPLE TO PAY UP. WHEN ASKED, 50 PEOPLE WANT THE CLASS. WHEN IT’S TIME TO PAY I STRUGGLED TO GET 20.

 

I agree that flying people to Hawaii is probably costly.  But...the local club doesn't pay that cost, USPSA does.  Right?

DUES ARE LIKE TAXES. WHATEVER USPSA PAYS FOR, I PAY FOR.  

 

 

[Boomstick303]

From what I have read I have not seen anyone mention to check with their USPSA Section if one exists in your location or near your location.  I understand some areas may not have a Section, but it might be something to look into.   Our section is set up that the section schedules and arranges RO and CRO classes.  Have you looked into if you reside in an area that has a section, or maybe an area close by that has a section?  Just and idea.  Next contact your USPSA Area Director to see what might work best for the location.  They may understand the USPSA landscape in or around the part of the country you live and have some guidance.

 

Our Section leader is very active in our area so we are lucky.  I didn't have to do anything but attend matches to find out when the next RO and/or CRO classes were going to be taught.  Everything was coordinated through him, and a local club.  

 

I have also joined the board on one of the local clubs, where the club pays for the RO and CRO classes for the Board members.  

 

I do understand the sticking point of having to pay to become an RO/CRO for a volunteer sport.  With that said, it is the volunteer aspect of the sport that keeps it alive, and for most I think the cost of attending a match is super reasonable when it comes to hobbies or recreationally sports.  Lift tickets are well over $100 for a day of skiing in many places.  When you are talking about cost of participation I do not think $40-$70 one time fee (as long as you stay current) to become an RO is unreasonable.  In an ideal world I would say it would need to be free, but I cannot see any other way to make these classes happen.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Boomstick303

[Thomas H]

5 hours ago, Sarge said:

THERE ARE GENERALLY ENOUGH SEASONED CRO/RO AROUND TO HELP.

(Sarge was talking about RO's first time running people.)

 

Not in many clubs, however.  Plus...often those other CRO/ROs are busy, even if they are around.  More importantly, in the class, after every call, the instructor can have a discussion with everyone else regarding what happened, how it could be handled, and so on.  In cases like that, the class can learn from not only their own attempt, but from everyone else's, and get direct immediate feedback.  That wouldn't be possible during a match, because it simply would take too much time.

 

Sarge also said:  "DUES ARE LIKE TAXES. WHATEVER USPSA PAYS FOR, I PAY FOR."

Last I knew the membership fee for USPSA hasn't really changed in quite some time.  I strongly doubt, given the amount of money (or more correctly lack of money, percentage-wise) spent on RMI travel, that the membership fee would be any different if USPSA didn't have to pay for travel. 

 

I agree that our fees pay for USPSA.  That's pretty much how any business works, though, and the amount spent on RMI travel is just going to be tiny compared to the rest of the budget.

[BillChunn]

5 hours ago, Sarge said:

SAME HERE. IT’S PRETTY EASY. THE WORST PART FOR ME IS AS GETTING PEOPLE TO PAY UP. WHEN ASKED, 50 PEOPLE WANT THE CLASS. WHEN IT’S TIME TO PAY I STRUGGLED TO GET 20.

 

Yep, when a new shooter is told about taking a NROI class to help them understand the sport and become a better competitor, they seem all for it.... And then they turn into one of these:

 

- They don't want to be a club member in any club and will never be an RO, but they wanted to sound interested at that moment.

- Is a club member but primarily a "Shoot and Scoot" person that carried one wall to storage after the match and then disappears.

- Is a club member but really just wants to be a "travelling trigger puller" so will come up with some excuse not to attend the class.

- Realizes that if they do become NROI certified, they could be asked to RO their squad.  That hurts their performance so they decide to skip the class.

 

Some people enjoy the volunteer aspect of this sport.

Other can't stand it and will never volunteer.  Hell, I have a hard time getting these people to pick up a paster gun provided by the club to patch targets on their squad. 

 

<Rant Off>

 

BC

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, BillChunn said:

Yep, when a new shooter is told about taking a NROI class to help them understand the sport and become a better competitor, they seem all for it.... And then they turn into one of these:

 

- They don't want to be a club member in any club and will never be an RO, but they wanted to sound interested at that moment.

- Is a club member but primarily a "Shoot and Scoot" person that carried one wall to storage after the match and then disappears.

- Is a club member but really just wants to be a "travelling trigger puller" so will come up with some excuse not to attend the class.

- Realizes that if they do become NROI certified, they could be asked to RO their squad.  That hurts their performance so they decide to skip the class.

 

Some people enjoy the volunteer aspect of this sport.

Other can't stand it and will never volunteer.  Hell, I have a hard time getting these people to pick up a paster gun provided by the club to patch targets on their squad. 

 

<Rant Off>

 

BC

Tell us how you really feel old friend!

[IL-SIG]

15 hours ago, BillChunn said:

In the RO class that I attended, the second day was spent on the range.  The instructor told certain people to do specific things, like leave your safety off on a Open division gun and then holster it.  When they were being run by the student, the class got to observe if the "infraction" was caught.  Others were told to just shoot the stage.

 

With stages becoming a bit more difficult to observe, this "timer in hand, competitor actually sending rounds downrange" excercise overcame that initial fear of running someone and making a mistake.  It also taught the little things like where to stand for a left-handed shooter to observer the gun coming out of and returning into the holster. 

 

This type of excercise is not going to be possible for a class that is held completely online.   

 

BC

 

I am a CRO. Asking someone to intentionally violate a major safety rule that would result in a DQ is an absolutely horrible idea and should never be condoned. What would the explanation be if that person accidentally shot them self or someone else?  Never encourage or request someone to intentionally violate a safety rule that puts anyone in danger!