Steel Challenge Only - Safe Table vs. Staging Area - PCC/RFR

[Hoops]

My focus, once again is SCSA and not UPSA,  even though in this case the rules for this topic are similar.  I would like some friendly input from fellow SCSA shooters how the following descriptions are interpreted and applied in practice during matches.

 

Background:  Our main range has ONE designated and clearly positioned SAFE table.  Cold Range rules in effect 100%.  PCC's and RFR are to be flagged and Cased or secured in Cart/Wagon.  Cases or Carts/Wagons are taken up the line/shooters box and shooter waits for RO Make Ready command.  NO touching firearm in any circumstance until RO gives the Make Ready Command.  Following the I see clear commands for PCC/RFR, the FLAGGED carbine is either re-cased, including zipped up past trigger group and/or securred back in the cart/wagon.  Then the range is clear command is given to paint.  Repeated the same for all shooters.  Note:  RFP that are not holstered go thru a similar protocol to remove and secure in bag/case absent a pistol flag.

 

We do not use the On-Deck pre-staging against a berm provision.  Some bays are wide and some are not.  

 

My main question is:  If the On-Deck staging is used during a match, is there a single designated area within the bay that has been deemed safe by the MD in terms of its location and berm configuration and is this clarification given by MD during shooter's meeting?

 

I assume shooter in a pre-stage stands still with firearm up/down and waits for the RO to call him/her to the line/box.  Correct?

 

At the unload and show clear command after the stage is shot, it is mandatory to install the flag before range is safe command and before the shooter can leave the box.  BUT if the shooter left his/her case/cart/wagon over in the staging area, what is the procedure for the shooter getting from the shooters box back to his gear to re-case or secure in cart?  Does the RO walk over with them to insure this is down properly.

 

I've read USPSA bulletins about don't fiddle with flags or red-dots or stock adjustments in the pre-stage.

 

Thank you.  Be safe.

 

 

[BillChunn]

Rifles

Around here, the majority of people either have their rifle in a zipped bag or on a cart.  When they are on deck and the previous shooter has vacated the shooting box and removed all their gear, they position the zipped bag on the barrel or table that is setup next to the shooting box.  The carts are wheeled next to the shooting box and positioned so that when the rifle is picked up, it CANNOT sweep the competitor, other competitors, spectators or the RO.  Since this is the responsibilityof the shooter, they get the DQ if any sort of sweeping occurs.  The cart is usually right next to the shooting box and angled so the weapon(s) are pointing downrange or to a side berm.  Nothing is touched or unzipped until the "Make Ready" command is issued by the RO.

 

After the RO has determined that the rifle is clear and gives the "If clear, hammer down (optional) and flag" command, the flag is inserted and the weapon is placed back in the bag and zipped past the trigger group.  Most people zip it all the way closed so nothing falls out when it is transported to the next stage.  If they are using a cart, the flagged rifle is aimed at the backstop (or berm if the club so deems) and then placed in the cart.  At that point the RO calls "Range Clear".

 

RF Pistol

For rimfire pistol, most have a gun bag and use that the same way as the bagged rifle.  It is completely zipped before the RO calls "Range Clear".

 

These are all Level 1 matches but the same was followed for the Level 2 match at the Michigan Steel Challenge Championship.

 

BC

Edited January 7, 2021 by BillChunn

[motosapiens]

easiest and safest is to simply have a table or 2 barrels next to the shooting box and bag any guns that need to be bagged right there. As an RO and club BOD member, I like that because we don't have people wandering around with uncased guns, even if it's a short wander from the shooting box to the side berm or uncasing area. As a shooter I like this because it's simple.

 

The whole uncasing against the berm concept makes some sense in USPSA, where you can't always have a convenient table at the make ready position, and where you normally end in a completely different spot than where you started, but in steel challenge I think it complicates things unnecessarily to case/uncase anywhere except standing in the shooting box.

 

as shooters, we prefer to uncase at the start and we did so for all the big matches last year, including area matches and worlds.

[Thomas H]

29 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

easiest and safest is to simply have a table or 2 barrels next to the shooting box and bag any guns that need to be bagged right there. As an RO and club BOD member, I like that because we don't have people wandering around with uncased guns, even if it's a short wander from the shooting box to the side berm or uncasing area. As a shooter I like this because it's simple.

 

The whole uncasing against the berm concept makes some sense in USPSA, where you can't always have a convenient table at the make ready position, and where you normally end in a completely different spot than where you started, but in steel challenge I think it complicates things unnecessarily to case/uncase anywhere except standing in the shooting box.

 

as shooters, we prefer to uncase at the start and we did so for all the big matches last year, including area matches and worlds.

 

I agree with the above. 

 

That being said, the rule says:

1. 5.1.3  The on-deck competitor, if shooting a Rimfire Rifle or PCC, may unbag or remove their firearm from the 3-gun cart or case into a side berm or staging area provided the bay being used has sufficient side-berm space to permit this practice. Once the firearm is removed from the case or cart the muzzle must remain pointed reasonably vertical (up or down), at all times, with a chamber flag inserted, until the Make Ready command is issued.

 

Given this, no, the RO doesn't need to escort them back and forth, or anything similar, and the on-deck competitor doesn't need to wait for permission to go get their gun.  Matter of fact, they don't need to necessarily wait there until they go to the shooting box.  As long as the muzzle is up/down appropriately and stay within the bay, there isn't any given limit on where they can go.

 

I agree that in SC it really isn't necessary---bagging/unbagging at the shooting box is by far the easiest.  (Or taking from a cart, etc.)  But the rule allows it, and doesn't have a requirement for any berm specifics other than "sufficient side-berm space."  It isn't a "pre-staging" area like may be used in a Multigun match.  If the PCC/RFR is uncased and flagged, and carried vertically, that's the sum of the requirements---they don't have to wait for any RO commentary or instruction, nor do they have to wait at the berm.

 

After they are done shooting, the gun is flagged, and it is vertical---they can just walk off and head back to the berm while everyone else paints and so on.  No need for RO commentary, escort, or instructions.  It isn't a staging area.  It just happens to be at a side berm so there is a safe direction for the firearm to be pointed while it is cased/placed in the cart.

[Hoops]

53 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

easiest and safest is to simply have a table or 2 barrels next to the shooting box and bag any guns that need to be bagged right there. As an RO and club BOD member, I like that because we don't have people wandering around with uncased guns, even if it's a short wander from the shooting box to the side berm or uncasing area. As a shooter I like this because it's simple.

 

The whole uncasing against the berm concept makes some sense in USPSA, where you can't always have a convenient table at the make ready position, and where you normally end in a completely different spot than where you started, but in steel challenge I think it complicates things unnecessarily to case/uncase anywhere except standing in the shooting box.

 

as shooters, we prefer to uncase at the start and we did so for all the big matches last year, including area matches and worlds.

Thanks for the replies.  The practice in place at our L1 matches is very similar to Motosapiens reply.  I also agree that the technical rule does allow it.  All of your replies help me better understand practice and rules.   Once COVID is gone I hope to venture out to larger matches, so now I'm better informed.

 

Motosapiens:  You said that at the worlds they used the method you described, which is our preference also.  Do you know if there was some form of communication to the shooters that informed them that the On-deck side berm would not be used for the match?  

 

In our case, we do occasionally have someone who reguarly shoots USPSA and decided to shoot SCSA for the first time at our match.  If we see anyone doing this we just advise them (and the balance of the squad) that all the firearm handling is at the shooters box under the direction of the RO.  

 

 

[zzt]

All of the ranges I shoot SCSA at have tables set up to the left of the firing box.  Almost everyone brings their firearm to the table cased and completely zippered.  They don't touch it before Make Ready.  There are a couple of shooters, both semi-handicapped that mount their two guns naked in gun carts.  They wheel the carts to the right of the shooting box and remove the gun they will shoot after MR.  Then another shooter moves the cart well back from the box.  The helper moves the cart back up beside the box after IGHDF.  The gun is replaced and fastened and the RO calls RIC.

 

For USPSA noone brings a case or cart to the line for PCC.  It is removed at the berm and carried vertically back and forth without RO supervision.  Although the rules allow muzzle up or down, one club encourages muzzle up.  I think that makes sense because there is no way you can sweep yourself.  Two matches ago two PCC shooters were DQ'd for sweeping their foot with a muzzle down carry.

[motosapiens]

19 hours ago, Hoops said:

Motosapiens:  You said that at the worlds they used the method you described, which is our preference also.  Do you know if there was some form of communication to the shooters that informed them that the On-deck side berm would not be used for the match?  

 

 

 

At A1 you could use the side berm, we just chose not to as shooters, since it's easier and simpler to unbag at the start. I *believe* it was the same at worlds, but don't quote me on that. I don't really recall seeing people unbag at a side berm there, but I wasn't really paying that much attention.

[Thomas H]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

At A1 you could use the side berm, we just chose not to as shooters, since it's easier and simpler to unbag at the start. I *believe* it was the same at worlds, but don't quote me on that. I don't really recall seeing people unbag at a side berm there, but I wasn't really paying that much attention.

 

in response to Hoops asking:

 

21 hours ago, Hoops said:

Motosapiens:  You said that at the worlds they used the method you described, which is our preference also.  Do you know if there was some form of communication to the shooters that informed them that the On-deck side berm would not be used for the match?  

 

 

Moto was talking about what shooters CHOSE to do, versus what the match required.    At worlds, they didn't require people to bag/unbag at the box, it is just that most people happened to do that, and Moto said as shooters, they chose that. 

 

It wasn't a match rule about berms, far as I know.  (Which makes sense, as SCSA rules allow it.)

 

[bigdawgbeav]

sometimes it is dictated by the range as well.  A couple of the ranges I shoot at don't have the berms or the space to have a shooter waiting in a staging area.  Now this is for SC where it is by far easier just to bring the cased gun to the box.  I used to uncase my rifles at the table and then just put them on the cart.  but then I had to carry the empty case around all day or go back to the car to get it and then return to safe table to bag it up.  Now I just leave it in the case and hang the case off the side of my cart.

[jrdoran]

My local club uses the 'on deck' model for rifles with steel challenge.  There are quite a few good shooters in our matches.  The logic of using the on deck ( uncase / muzzle up ) is to speed things along and not have the case / uncase done at the shooting box.    I don't personally like the ondeck model, but I go along with it.  I do agree not necessary with SC. 

[Hoops]

Thanks to everyone who commented.  I appreciate the information.  Each one was very constructive.  It appears that the use of 5.1.3 for on-deck competitors can be optional based on individual range factors and/or the requirements of MD(s) in charge of the match(s).  

 

At our local club, there are several types of matches each Saturday and Sunday which are IDPA, IDPA style carbine, USPSA, Outlaw steel and SCSA.  Several different MD's run these matches.  It is not uncommon to have few shooters at out steel matches that also shoot the other match types.  This range has one SAFE TABLE that is outside of the bays.  

 

I spoke with each steel match MD today regarding your input.   We have concluded that for our steel matches, the method to be used for all firearm handling will only be at the tables/barrels next to the shooters box when the shooter is called up to shoot.  All other handling of firearms, as per the range cold range rules will be at the Safe table. We will not use the on-deck option at the steel matches. 

 

At each match this requirement will be part of our new shooters meeting and the general shooters meeting prior to each match.  This will insure that any USPSA/IDPA shooter who may be shooting these matches at the same range under direction of another MD and any new shooter, will be clear and informed about what will be required at our steel match that day.   

 

Thank you.  Be safe.

[xpierrat]

I hope USPSA will change the rule for steel challenge to be uncase/ uncart at the shooters box as there is no upside to using the side bearm like there is in 3 gun and USPSA matches... I know it is my personal preference as a RO for it to be done at the box and in matches I RO I request it... course if anyone was to object and insist on using the berm I would have to allow it 

 

[bigdawgbeav]

I, personally, don't see the need for the on-deck shooter to be holding onto their rifle.  If you are the on-deck shooter you should already be at the box with your cart next to you or your bag on the table.  It takes time to reset the stage.  The on-deck shooter should not be going down to paint targets, unless you happen to be on a short squad.  During that time you have plenty of time to air-gun, or move from box to box, etc.  When you are given "Make Ready" then you have 1 minute to take any sight pictures and get the ready.  Waiting with the gun uncased in an "on-deck" area doesn't make things go faster, in my opinion.

[Thomas H]

It is interesting to me that people keep saying that there is an "on-deck" area.  The rules don't say anything like that, merely that someone can case/uncase at the berm, and the person that can do so is the on-deck person.

 

Normally, at our matches, the few people who uncase at the berm just walk up to the shooting box and wait there with their rifle held vertically while the stage is being reset, and at make ready, do their thing. 

 

There is no requirement to wait in an "on-deck area" because there isn't any such thing.  The "on-deck" part is merely saying which person can uncase their gun at the berm, that's all.

 

Note:  This isn't an argument for or against the process---I personally don't care, and don't think it speeds up (much) or slows down (at all) the match.  There's nothing wrong with it.  I personally prefer to bag/unbag at the shooting box because I like to stand there and airgun while the stage is being reset, and I can't do that if I'm holding my rifle already.  Other people don't care, and since they also are ready at the shooting box when it is time to shoot, it definitely doesn't slow down the match, and arguably speeds it up slightly because it is true that bagging/unbagging takes slightly longer than bringing the gun from vertical to horizontal.