DirkD Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 Just now, Boomstick303 said: Sorry I will be more precise. The RO should have never let the shooter start the course of Fire. Is that better? Or is it legal to start a stage leaning on a prop outside of the shooting area and not incur a penalty. He would be leaning on the prop on the clock, after the timer is started right? He is still leaning on the prop once the buzzer goes off. Either way it looked to me the RO errored. Or am I not correct? Again, your example of rules that are not concise is???? what did the WSB say? I am not sure what you are saying the procedural would be, 10.2.1 applies when shooting, if you are touching something outside the shooting area while in the start position, how is that a procedural? Leaning on a prop while on the clock does not incur a penalty unless they fired a shot. was the shooter in the wrong start position? If so the ro should not have started them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasty618 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 (edited) On 1/5/2021 at 11:16 AM, WaJim said: The test is not a joint effort with other ROs But it's also an open book test and you have what? three attempts to complete it? All while being able to review the results before taking another stab at it in an attempt to get 80 or 85% to pass? 23 hours ago, PatJones said: USPSA is full of range lawyers.. I find it almost amusing when people who are not ROs or worse, haven't even read the rule book, start offering their opinions. It often starts with "I think it should be...". I wish we still had printed rule books. Open the book on the relevant rule, point at it and tell them to read it. Edited January 7, 2021 by nasty618 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchapman Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 40 minutes ago, nasty618 said: I wish we still had printed rule books. Open the book on the relevant rule, point at it and tell them to read it. So do I we don't have cell service half the time at our range, so the phone app doesn't work for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Download the rulebook PDF to your phone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchapman Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, waktasz said: Download the rulebook PDF to your phone I have and it won't open up. without service or wifi, or I'm doing something wrong with it, I'm tech challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 This, not the app. Download this to your phone or if you really want, print ithttps://uspsa.org/viewer/2020-USPSA-Competition-Rules.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 35 minutes ago, waktasz said: Download the rulebook PDF to your phone ummm yeh,,, ,, everyone doesnt walk around with a swipe planted in their face. Not like dues pay for anything else useful, send us a rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Gee ... Print it out and put it in your range bag? Nah ... Too old school! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 24 minutes ago, Joe4d said: ummm yeh,,, ,, everyone doesnt walk around with a swipe planted in their face. Not like dues pay for anything else useful, send us a rule book. wut? Is it really that hard to go to the website and download a file? Surely it's easier than registering for this forum and running your mouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 at one time a printed sent out rule book every few years with a different color cover kept things pretty straight, everyone knew at a glance it was the latest version. With a bit of use, was way easier to flip through than a pdf on a phone out doors. Not to mention you could hand it to someone to read. There was also the stability of rules issue... rules stayed the same for years.. Draft versions of rules were presented... and even then rules didnt change until a new rule book was issues. Nowadays, single change of code changes rules or interpretations, and all of the sudden seems USPSA is getting alot more changes. alot more frequently and folks are running around with different PDF's. Anyway, just pointing out to some that everyone in the world doesnt find touch screen phones all that useful, or useable, as many automatically assume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkD Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 8 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: Gee ... Print it out and put it in your range bag? Nah ... Too old school! Why can't uspsa send out a rule book? What does uspsa do for clubs and members? Clubs put on matches, uspsa doesn't except nationals, and they use volunteers to run the matches build stages, run shooters and uspsa doesn't do much except take money, even threw a guy out because he pulled his scores and usosa didn't get their 3 dollars. With a printed rule book that doesn't change all the time you can keep it in your bag, tab it, underline highlight pertinent rules, hand it to a ro or shooters to show them the rules. Not as easy on your phone. Uspsa would rather take money from clubs than print a rule book for their members and sell it as a benefit to have a download for the rule book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasty618 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 12 hours ago, waktasz said: Download this to your phone I'm all for having an electronic rule book. It's there on my phone and gets good use almost every match... But there's huge psychological and educational value in being able to pull out an official book from the range box, open it on the right page, ask the range lawyer or opinion giver to read it and walk away. One does not exclude the other and the costs of having a printed book cannot be so prohibitive that a a fiscally frugal and financially healthy organization should so easily scratch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillChunn Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 (edited) IMHO searching an electronic version of the rulebook is much more efficient than turning page after page and visually scanning for what you are looking for in a printed book. If you really want that capability, print out the PDF version and stick it in your range bag. If you don't have a printer, the local print shop can do it for you. Both options are available. BC Edited January 7, 2021 by BillChunn cain't spel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 On 1/6/2021 at 1:17 PM, DirkD said: Leaning on a prop while on the clock does not incur a penalty unless they fired a shot. Discussion is good. The RO was not wrong, I was incorrect. Shots were not fired while using the prop for support. At least I do not think it was, it would have been hard to tell from my advantage point due to the stage design. To your earlier point, those that know the rules, game the rules and tell the RO to prove them wrong holds true. My error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Clubs can download the rulebook PDF onto all scoring tablets so there's always a rulebook available on every stage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkD Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 4 minutes ago, Southpaw said: Clubs can download the rulebook PDF onto all scoring tablets so there's always a rulebook available on every stage... when a shooter needs to know a rule, the stage can't be scored if they are using the tablet to look up rules, does the ro give the tablet to the shooter to look up a rule? that will slow down a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 5 minutes ago, DirkD said: when a shooter needs to know a rule, the stage can't be scored if they are using the tablet to look up rules, does the ro give the tablet to the shooter to look up a rule? that will slow down a match. Is it ever up to the match to provide a rulebook for the shooter to use to look up a rule? I don't think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkD Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, waktasz said: Is it ever up to the match to provide a rulebook for the shooter to use to look up a rule? I don't think so no that is something uspsa should provide to its customers and its range officials, they don't give rule books to range officers at nationals, never seen a printed rule book on a stage after they went to the online version, even at nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, DirkD said: no that is something uspsa should provide to its customers and its range officials, they don't give rule books to range officers at nationals, never seen a printed rule book on a stage after they went to the online version, even at nationals. They literally made the rulebook available to anyone via PDF. You can connect to it at any time. If you can't connect, you can read a copy you've saved to any electronic device. It is a PDF file. The rulebook is always up-to-date, never have to worry about having missed a rule change or a clarification update. Everyone can always have the most-current version. Given that, I'm pretty sure USPSA does indeed provide it to its customers and range officials. And matches I've been to, I haven't had any problem finding a device with the rulebook on it. (Of course, when I'm a CRO at a major, I bring a rulebook on a tablet as part of my kit, because that's part of my job. Then again, I always have a copy of the rulebook with me at any match, because it is easy to do, and useful.) Edited to add: I agree that for me, reading the rulebook on a phone is annoying. Plenty of other people don't have a problem with it, though. Those that do, however, should fix their own problems and use a tablet like I do when it is necessary. Edited January 7, 2021 by Thomas H added comment about reading on a phone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillChunn Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 3 minutes ago, Thomas H said: use a tablet like I do when it is necessary. ^^^^ This BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkD Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 12 minutes ago, Thomas H said: They literally made the rulebook available to anyone via PDF. You can connect to it at any time. If you can't connect, you can read a copy you've saved to any electronic device. It is a PDF file. The rulebook is always up-to-date, never have to worry about having missed a rule change or a clarification update. Everyone can always have the most-current version. Given that, I'm pretty sure USPSA does indeed provide it to its customers and range officials. And matches I've been to, I haven't had any problem finding a device with the rulebook on it. (Of course, when I'm a CRO at a major, I bring a rulebook on a tablet as part of my kit, because that's part of my job. Then again, I always have a copy of the rulebook with me at any match, because it is easy to do, and useful.) Edited to add: I agree that for me, reading the rulebook on a phone is annoying. Plenty of other people don't have a problem with it, though. Those that do, however, should fix their own problems and use a tablet like I do when it is necessary. you missed the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Just now, DirkD said: you missed the point No, you complained about something false. If you want a printed rulebook that can be out-of-date, you can print one. It is certainly true that the rulebook IS indeed available easily to absolutely everyone in the most up-to-date fashion at all times. You said: "that is something uspsa should provide to its customers and its range officials, they don't give rule books to range officers at nationals, never seen a printed rule book on a stage after they went to the online version, even at nationals" .....and they obviously do provide them. Or are you claiming that the CROs didn't have an electronic version available to them on the stages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 18 hours ago, mchapman said: I have and it won't open up. without service or wifi, or I'm doing something wrong with it, I'm tech challenged. You're doing something seriously wrong. If the rulebook is downloaded correctly to your phone it's a file that lives in your phone, not on the internet. You can open it if your phone has enough power to operate. Doesn't matter if you have neither cell service or wifi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 16 minutes ago, DirkD said: you missed the point We don't need a paper rulebook from USPSA. If you want one, print one at your expense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 19 hours ago, waktasz said: wut? Is it really that hard to go to the website and download a file? Surely it's easier than registering for this forum and running your mouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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