Lee FCD & Berrys

[d3ydx3]

I just started reloading my first 40 S&W in the last couple of months for a BUL Armory 1911 that I purchased to shoot SS major/minor. My first few trips to the range to test my reloads resulted in less than desirable accuracy. The accuracy wasn't terrible, but it wasn't great either. Definitely not what I am used to shooting with my Limited 9mm gun that can group well at 25 yards. I thought part of the problem was me being new to shooting 40 S&W loaded for major, and got to a point where accuracy was good enough for a typical match, but still not satisified.

 

As far as the load goes, I'm using the .401" 180gr Berrys double plated cone bullets. Bullets being what they are to come by these days, I was glad that I found these. My major load is 4.6 grains of N320 @ 1.135 OAL and my minor load is 4.0 grains of N320 @ 1.180 OAL. 

 

During my last range session, I tested a new minor load that I've been working up, as well as shooting a box of major that I had loaded for practice. When I got home, I looked at the target a bit more, and found some questionable holes that I haven't seen before. Here's the picture. Shooting was done at 10 yards since I was running a few drills. I have no idea if this was more from major or minor load or a combination of both since I shooting mixed that day.

 

https://imgur.com/EYjC8y8

 

The hole to the left of the A has a mark projecting out from it. There are also some other holes to the far left of the headbox and to the right of the A that have something protruding from the hole. This looks like a picture that someone posted here a couple of years ago. This is the post - 

 

Fair to say that some of those holes look similar to mine? Apparently, Berrys confirmed this was plate separation based on the OP's comments. 

 

I decided to pull some bullets, and here's what they looked like. I am using the Lee FCD and going for a .420 case mouth with this batch. There is a line all the way around the bullet, and from what I can measure, the bullet has been swaged down to .400".

 

https://imgur.com/3z8WFiV

 

After seeing this, I decided to back out the taper crimp adjustment all the way on the Lee FCD. The bullet on the left of the next picture is with the taper crimp all the way backed out. The one on the right is with no Lee FCD - guess which one looks better? It appears the sizing ring in the Lee FCD is still cutting into the plating and swaging the bullet down. The thickness of the brass may not be helping either. I'm using mixed - Blazer, Federal, Winchester, Remington, some CBC, and S&B (beggars can't be choosers, right now).

 

https://imgur.com/anz1zPw

 

At this point, I'm just going to not use the Lee FCD at all. My rounds seem to gauge well, and I'm only doing .423" of flare, which is still within SAAMI specs. Most of my rounds without using the Lee FCD at all are coming out to .421-422", so all good there. I also have the Lee seating die backed out all the way to not do any crimp as it seats the bullet (learned that from previously having issues with 9mm dies). 

 

Can't wait for my set of Redding competition dies to get here with the dual sizing ring...

 

Any thoughts on the above? Hopefully, I'm on the right track with my thinking. Thanks guys!

 

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by pealandco

[Miranda]

I do not reload 40 yet.

others will be along with more definite answers

the usual comments...

plated bullets avoid crimping into the plating

that all by itself will help.

 

and with 9mm I know the FCD will swage lead bullets

you have me thinking the 40 is the same.

good to know.

 

I think you are headed the right way.

 

miranda

 

 

 

[noylj]

All a taper "crimp" is really designed to do is remove the case mouth flare. It is not designed to hold the bullet. If you look at factory ammo you'll see that it frequently doesn't even TOUCH the bullet.

IF you remove the carbide ring, you will have a taper crimp die as good as any other. If you leave it as is, you can remove the crimp "guts" and start to bulge bust your cases prior to loading.

From your picture, you were WAY over crimping.

 

[d3ydx3]

24 minutes ago, noylj said:

All a taper "crimp" is really designed to do is remove the case mouth flare. It is not designed to hold the bullet. If you look at factory ammo you'll see that it frequently doesn't even TOUCH the bullet.

IF you remove the carbide ring, you will have a taper crimp die as good as any other. If you leave it as is, you can remove the crimp "guts" and start to bulge bust your cases prior to loading.

From your picture, you were WAY over crimping.

 

Crazy thing is that it was a small amount of crimp as far as the FCD goes. Under half a turn after the case mouth touches per the usual Lee instructions. That got me to .420” at the case mouth, which isn’t crazy.

 

With no crimp on the FCD the carbide ring still swages the bullet and leaves a ring around the bullet as you can see from the 2nd picture of the pulled bullets that I took. Seems my only option to not use the FCD at all..

 

My U-die does take care of the bulge, but with some brass shavings where the bulge is. That’s a separate issue, which I’m not sure is an issue.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by pealandco

[zzt]

The Lee FCD die is set to size the case on the way down, and again on the way up.  It WILL swage the portion of the Berry's bullet INSIDE to case to .400".  I shoot Berry's 'normal' plated and their heavy plate.  I get zero plate separation or any other issues.  I use a Mr. Bulletfeeder expander/funnel with no flair, seat with my Hornady seater and crimp only with the Lee FCD.  My bullets go into the same hole at 15 yards, so something else is wrong with your gun/load/reloading technique/etc.

 

I use the Lee FCD for all calibers, even when the bullet diameter is 'larger' than what the FCD was designed for.  That includes my LSWC bullseye rounds.  So the slight swaging inside the case has zero, in my experience, to do with accuracy. Maybe I'm just lucky in three calibers, but I shoot a bazillion rounds a year in those calibers and I have zero loss of accuracy.  I'd respectfully suggest your problem lies elsewhere.

[Miranda]

Hi zzt,

am gunna disagree strongly with you about lee's FCD in 9MM.

it will swage .356 lead bullets in most cases(the brass kind)

it will swage ALL .357 lead bullets in all cases.

I have tried all possible combinations I have here in my reloading room.

'Tis that die that does the swaging.

 

If you want to tell me I have a special one... (and I have been told that)

in careful questioning I have found mine is not the only one.

 

if you run brass or copper jacketed .355 bullets that die is fine.

you probably can run fatter jacketed bullets.

 

To be clear here.  I like lee's FCD.

I use it when I make jacketed ammo.

Believe me, spending the extra for the taper crimp was not a source of great joy.

to make fat bottomed 9mm lead rounds

that didn't fall out of the cases... the taper crimp was required.

 

I expect I'll be making or advising my cousin

for reloading his 40.  now I know to watch...

 

miranda

 

 

 

 

 

 

[d3ydx3]

3 hours ago, zzt said:

The Lee FCD die is set to size the case on the way down, and again on the way up.  It WILL swage the portion of the Berry's bullet INSIDE to case to .400".  I shoot Berry's 'normal' plated and their heavy plate.  I get zero plate separation or any other issues.  I use a Mr. Bulletfeeder expander/funnel with no flair, seat with my Hornady seater and crimp only with the Lee FCD.  My bullets go into the same hole at 15 yards, so something else is wrong with your gun/load/reloading technique/etc.

 

I use the Lee FCD for all calibers, even when the bullet diameter is 'larger' than what the FCD was designed for.  That includes my LSWC bullseye rounds.  So the slight swaging inside the case has zero, in my experience, to do with accuracy. Maybe I'm just lucky in three calibers, but I shoot a bazillion rounds a year in those calibers and I have zero loss of accuracy.  I'd respectfully suggest your problem lies elsewhere.

 

That's fair. I'm not suggesting that the swaging is directly causing my accuracy issues. I know there are a lot of people on this forum that believe any amount of swaging is a bad thing, though, so I'm conscious of it when I see it on my pulled bullets. I have loaded many rounds with the Lee FCD and Berrys 124gr 9mm and have had no issues with accuracy there. My 9mm rounds have similar swaging marks on them with no issues, which is similar to your experience with the Lee FCD.

 

The only thing that I have seen that is of concern with my reloads is the marks around the holes on the target that I posted. It is first time I have seen anything like that on any of my targets, which is why I wanted to bring it up on here to see what it may be. Prior to seeing the marks on the target, I was willing to blame my accuracy issues on me getting used to shooting 40 S&W major. In another post the OP said that Berrys confirmed it was plate separation based on some marks that I also seem to have on my target. The question then becomes why am I getting plate separation?

 

I'm going to the range tomorrow to see how a load groups with no FCD and whether or not I see the marks that I've seen on my recent targets.

Edited January 2, 2021 by pealandco

[Miranda]

oh. the blue marks.

the bullet prints do not look like tumbles

so that leaves a strip poked out from the bullet like a flower petal.

 

over crimping and perhaps a burr in the case.

 

I didn't recover those bullets so I will

readily admit I am not certain.

buuuut it is consistent with the crimp you show on a bullet.

 

fun stuff.

 

I did a little mark 1 eyeballing if the grease ring is .400 inches or 10mm

the blue stripe looks about 7mm maybe .3 inches from proportioning..,

 

the radius of the bullet base could make a little difference.

 

miranda

 

[d3ydx3]

1 hour ago, Miranda said:

oh. the blue marks.

the bullet prints do not look like tumbles

so that leaves a strip poked out from the bullet like a flower petal.

 

over crimping and perhaps a burr in the case.

 

I didn't recover those bullets so I will

readily admit I am not certain.

buuuut it is consistent with the crimp you show on a bullet.

 

fun stuff.

 

I did a little mark 1 eyeballing if the grease ring is .400 inches or 10mm

the blue stripe looks about 7mm maybe .3 inches from proportioning..,

 

the radius of the bullet base could make a little difference.

 

miranda

 

 

Yes, the blue marks. There are at least two that are very visible on the target. One to the immediate left of the A and the other one on the far left of the headbox towards the top. There are also multiple holes that don't have the blue mark, but a protrusion that cut into the target at various orientations. There are many more of those. The other post that I linked from 2018 has a quote from Berrys about it being caused by a pedal or a flake of the plating protruding from the bullet after it exited the barrel. That post had a lot more blue marks than mine, but the similarities are hard to ignore.

Edited January 2, 2021 by pealandco

[Farmer]

If you were using mixed brass I’m betting the CBC brass was the culprit. I’ve run most of the ones you’ve mentioned through the FCD and the CBC brass is the one that drags through the bottom carbide the most. It’s about .001 thicker than the others. I’ve also crimped some that left a faint ring with no ill effects. What’s funny is that mark looks to be about the width of a rifling land or groove. Maybe a combo of the crimp cutting a ring and then the rifling cutting down the side peeling back the jacket. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Farmer

[zzt]

13 hours ago, Miranda said:

Hi zzt,

am gunna disagree strongly with you about lee's FCD in 9MM.

it will swage .356 lead bullets in most cases(the brass kind)

it will swage ALL .357 lead bullets in all cases.

 

No argument.  I said as much.  The 9mm FCD will swage anything inside the case to .355".  My argument was that it didn't seem to matter as far as accuracy goes.

[HesedTech]

4 hours ago, zzt said:

My argument was that it didn't seem to matter as far as accuracy goes.

???
 

My experience years ago using the FCD was bad.  Not only did I get tumbling, because brass differs in wall thickness and design, I had Bullets actually fall out of the brass after using the FCD. This is due to the “spring back” of the brass while the lead bullet remains at the new swaged size.

I have found a proper reloading setup does not require the FCD at all. The main problem it “fixes” is a misaligned bullet while seating deforming the brass. The fix is to use a NOE plug or M die to pre-size the brass for the bullet, especially when using coated/lead Bullets. 
 

But the point was accuracy and the answer is odd or improper sized bullets will not be as accurate.

 

For the OP

 

My 40sw loads use the Dillon die set. I have the Comp Seating die and found it actually (Dillon 1050) did not seat the bullets straighter or with more accuracy than the Dillon. The taper crimp die works perfectly and takes out the bell from the MBF powder funnel.

 

I do like the Blue Bullets in 40 the best. Tried other coated bullets, plated and FMJ (they work great just too expensive), but for my Tanfoglio 40SW the Blues run perfect, easy to load and cost is reasonable.

Edited January 2, 2021 by HesedTech

[Miranda]

12 hours ago, zzt said:

 

No argument.  I said as much.  The 9mm FCD will swage anything inside the case to .355".  My argument was that it didn't seem to matter as far as accuracy goes.

ah um.  Ok If that is what you meant...

please accept my apology for my mis-understanding it and then being a know-it-all.

 

miranda

 

 

[Miranda]

Hi zzt,

 

I have to share this...

I absolutely can't tell you that FCD dies make any difference

in accuracy with lead bullets.

I never shot them.

the dinking things fell out before I could shoot 'em!

 

I can state that my swaged bullets were not as accurate

as the bullets seated with a bigger expander funnel

 

so I would think the FCD would cause less accuracy with a lead bullet

and I have not given it a test

 

miranda

[Farmer]

The Redding Profile Crimp die can cause similar problems. It’s a slight taper crimp with a roll crimp at the top. I have one for several revolver calibers and have noticed accuracy issues with cast bullets. The biggest issue was with my 327 FM when I realized that it was sizing the bullets down. Groups grew about an inch or better with many wild flyers so it can make a difference. The die works great with jacketed and even to just to roll the flair back on plated, just not cast. 

[zzt]

10 hours ago, Miranda said:

so I would think the FCD would cause less accuracy with a lead bullet

and I have not given it a test

 

I never shoot lead bullets in 9.  It is mostly JHPs, but some plated and poly.  I used to in 40 and never had a problem using the FCD.  I now shoot poly coated or plated in 40.  I do shoot lead bullets in 45.   I use the FCD as the crimp die for my bullseye loads using LSWCs.  The bullets don't fall out and the accuracy is excellent.  Now that may be due to using only RP head stamp brass for my bullseye loads, but I doubt it.  I use mixed range brass for the competition loads and don't have any problem with them.   

 

I don't doubt you when you say your lead bullets fell out.  HT said the same thing.  I've never experienced it.  I have on occasion had to pull a lead bullet crimped with the FCD, and they did not come out easily.  It usually took 4 or 5 good whacks to pull the bullet.

[Miranda]

it is odd to have a discussion about 9mm lead bullets in a 40 reloading forum.

 

I ran a lot of plated bullets.   9mm dies and the FCD. 

all was fine as far as I could tell.

I think you are here. 

please don't mistake this.

9mm is a cartridge that should have jacketed bullets

that is how it was designed and the case is consistent with the design.

I think you asked how does one get a lee FCD to swage a bullet so it will fall out?

the short answer is use a hard lead bullet sized to .357 and an S&B 9mm case.

the S&B case has thick walls.  What the case does not swage, the FCD will finish.

the bullet can't be pushed in buuut it will fall out.

 

I have a lot of trials and errors in this and this last bit may explain why

there are people who have a problem and some who don't.

a lead bullet, plated and coated as well, will swage at least a little when seated.

At the nominal .355, the case does not swage past a little and the FCD has room

to go to the bottom and not size the top of the case where the bullet sits.

 

at .356 things start overlapping...

the expander opens the case for a .355 bullet, and a .356 is swaged a bit more

and if you are reloading a thick walled case the FCD will size the area where

the bullet sits and the bullet might fall out.

I am sure anneal of case and hardness of the .356 bullet will make some difference here also.

 

the rest of the post is me sharing all the joys of making fat bottom 9mm lead bullet ammo.

 

I wanted to run my own cast lead... the above worked and my barrel took a while to clean...

so I tried fatter and harder lead bullets.

this is a bit tangled...

nothing got me what I wanted.  fatter bullets still streaked the barrel.

accuracy was maybe a little better.  mostly maybe.

 

so I started looking at my process, bullets, dies, and brass.

the expander was swapped for a 38...

seemed ok.  the FCD swaged the bullet.  this combo is about guaranteed to cause bullets to drop out.

the taper crimp... it does not swage.  however.

the 38 expander opens the case enough that a .355 bullet will be lightly held...

I understand the MBF people make an expander that is about half way

from ordinary 9mm to ordinary 38. 

The brass cases make a difference, in that a thick wall case will make for oversize ammo

when you get to dropping fat bottomed bullets into your chamber.

 

miranda