matto6 Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 (edited) I'm a new shooter and I've been struggling with recoil anticipation.  A few thousand rounds of practicing drills and I thought I had started to mostly beat it.  But then I bought a Beretta LTT 92G.  I got the LTT because I have large hands and the grip fits me perfectly. With some LOK grips the thing locks in my hand. I dry fire it like a pro: the sights don't move at all.  Based on my dry firing I predicted I would shoot it far better than any of my other guns.  But then I actually shot it (3 times now, ~500 rounds) and I'm terrible with it.   Below are two targets at 10 yards, DA trigger pull only. The left target is my CZ Shadow 1, the right is the LTT.  (And it's not the gun - it's accurate if I shoot from a rest)  With the LTT I think my anticipation is back. My theory is that it's because the trigger breaks so far back on the Beretta. By the time my finger gets all the way back near my other fingers, my brain is like - "screw this, I'm not waiting any longer. Something should have happened by now. I'm flinching."  Goddamn, this anticipation thing is really frustrating.    Part of me says - this is fixable through training, and once I fix it the Beretta will be a better platform for me given how solidly I can grip the frame.   But the other part says, screw that - why fight more battles than you need to - just shoot the CZ. I was planning on running an RMR on the Beretta but I could always have the Shadow slide milled if I want to go that route. Does anyone else have trouble shooting Berettas? Edited December 31, 2020 by matto6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ML123 Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 Im a new shooter too and having the same issues except with a CZ so maybe I should try a Beretta lol!  Anyway, I did find a drill quite useful for this. Load rack a round and drop the mag. Fire the round and then dry fire the second round and you will see the flinch. Keep doing it till it goes away. It worked pretty well for I am still dealing with the issue but if I do this at the beginning of a training session I will not flinch as much. Here is the youtube video I found   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 1 hour ago, matto6 said: My theory is that it's because the trigger breaks so far back on the Beretta. By the time my finger gets all the way back near my other fingers, my brain is like - "screw this, I'm not waiting any longer. Something should have happened by now. I'm flinching."  However fast you're pressing the trigger in DA, triple it. Forget where the bullets go for now doing that. Just concentrate on running the trigger as quickly as possible through the DA stroke. Do that in both live and dry fire.  Whatever you do, you cannot afford to slowly press (or even worse stage) a DA trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matto6 Posted December 31, 2020 Author Share Posted December 31, 2020 26 minutes ago, ML123 said: Im a new shooter too and having the same issues except with a CZ so maybe I should try a Beretta lol!  Anyway, I did find a drill quite useful for this. Load rack a round and drop the mag. Fire the round and then dry fire the second round and you will see the flinch. Keep doing it till it goes away. It worked pretty well for I am still dealing with the issue but if I do this at the beginning of a training session I will not flinch as much. Here is the youtube video I found Haha, yeah maybe we just need to trade guns  I have actually done quite a bit of that drill. It's very good.  If I do it slow speed it no longer works because my subconscious as figured out that there's no bullet. I've moved on to full ball and dummy and it works pretty well. Another thing I found is that most of my flinch doesn't come from my wrists, but my arms and shoulders. If I keep my neck and shoulders relaxed, the flinch is less likely, and much smaller if it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matto6 Posted December 31, 2020 Author Share Posted December 31, 2020 16 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:  However fast you're pressing the trigger in DA, triple it. Forget where the bullets go for now doing that. Just concentrate on running the trigger as quickly as possible through the DA stroke. Do that in both live and dry fire.  Whatever you do, you cannot afford to slowly press (or even worse stage) a DA trigger. I'll give it a try tomorrow. However, in my experience, the faster I pull the trigger the more likely I am to flinch, because my body can better predict when the gun can go off.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 25 minutes ago, matto6 said: I'll give it a try tomorrow. However, in my experience, the faster I pull the trigger the more likely I am to flinch, because my body can better predict when the gun can go off.   OK, give it a shot anyway. But reallly fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertson Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 I wouldn't worry about it, the target on the right isn't that bad. Once when I was struggling with a new platform a GM told me it can take 10,000 rounds to get it right. Stay positive and enjoy every trip to the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seakphotog Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 I suffer the same when shooting my 92 clone. The DA pull is so long compared to my other DA/SA guns (all CZs) that I end up anticipating the shot or losing patience. I'm still trying to work my way thru it tho since the SA is just so sweet and I love the ergos and design. In fact I'm thinking about picking up a LTT 92 optics ready and hopefully being able to work thru the initial trigger pull issues. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seakphotog Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 On 12/30/2020 at 4:35 PM, SGT_Schultz said:  However fast you're pressing the trigger in DA, triple it. Forget where the bullets go for now doing that. Just concentrate on running the trigger as quickly as possible through the DA stroke. Do that in both live and dry fire.  Whatever you do, you cannot afford to slowly press (or even worse stage) a DA trigger. I suffer from the OP's problem as well and I think your advice is sound, at least from what I'm seeing. I've been working on a quicker initial pull and it does seem to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matto6 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 27 minutes ago, Seakphotog said: I suffer the same when shooting my 92 clone. The DA pull is so long compared to my other DA/SA guns (all CZs) that I end up anticipating the shot or losing patience. I'm still trying to work my way thru it tho since the SA is just so sweet and I love the ergos and design. In fact I'm thinking about picking up a LTT 92 optics ready and hopefully being able to work thru the initial trigger pull issues. Good luck! I've come to the conclusion that it might actually be multiple factors.  1. DA:  yeah, the Beretta is really long.   No getting around it 2. SA: The SA on my CZ Shadow Custom has just a slight bit more of a rolling break to its feel than the LTT. The Shadow moves a bit and then breaks, whereas the LTT is solid until you put enough force, then it breaks (more glass-rod-ish).  I think the LTT trigger makes it easier for the flinchies to know when to kick in, as the tension is building 3. The LTT trigger breaks back further, closer to your other fingers.  I think I am better at pulling a trigger straight when my finger is forward more.  Once it's back that far (back meaning closer to the rest of the fingers on my hand) I have a harder time moving one finger but not the others I suspect all of these could be overcome with enough training.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 3 hours ago, matto6 said: I've come to the conclusion that it might actually be multiple factors.  1. DA:  yeah, the Beretta is really long.   No getting around it 2. SA: The SA on my CZ Shadow Custom has just a slight bit more of a rolling break to its feel than the LTT. The Shadow moves a bit and then breaks, whereas the LTT is solid until you put enough force, then it breaks (more glass-rod-ish).  I think the LTT trigger makes it easier for the flinchies to know when to kick in, as the tension is building 3. The LTT trigger breaks back further, closer to your other fingers.  I think I am better at pulling a trigger straight when my finger is forward more.  Once it's back that far (back meaning closer to the rest of the fingers on my hand) I have a harder time moving one finger but not the othersI suspect all of these could be overcome with enough training.   Absolutely.  For quite some time I had it in my head that I couldn't shoot a stiker fired pistol worth a crap. I went through a G17 and two M&P9s before I swore off them for years, shooting only revolvers and DA/SA.  Late in 2019 I bought a P-10F and still struggled with it all the way through the 2020 season, sometimes ditching it and going back to my P-09. Finally about three months ago I decided I needed to stop vacillating and to commit to learning how to shoot the thing. So I forced myself to not touch a DA/SA pistol and to dry and live fire with a purpose until I got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 4 hours ago, Seakphotog said: I suffer from the OP's problem as well and I think your advice is sound, at least from what I'm seeing. I've been working on a quicker initial pull and it does seem to help.  I found that really engaging the strong side forearm muscles and to crush the grip in a front to back C clap with my strong hand to let me run the trigger DA fast without the gun wobbling all over the place. Obviously the weak hand needs to play its part too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prange Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 7 hours ago, matto6 said: I've come to the conclusion that it might actually be multiple factors.  1. DA:  yeah, the Beretta is really long.   No getting around it 2. SA: The SA on my CZ Shadow Custom has just a slight bit more of a rolling break to its feel than the LTT. The Shadow moves a bit and then breaks, whereas the LTT is solid until you put enough force, then it breaks (more glass-rod-ish).  I think the LTT trigger makes it easier for the flinchies to know when to kick in, as the tension is building 3. The LTT trigger breaks back further, closer to your other fingers.  I think I am better at pulling a trigger straight when my finger is forward more.  Once it's back that far (back meaning closer to the rest of the fingers on my hand) I have a harder time moving one finger but not the others I suspect all of these could be overcome with enough training.  The so-called "crisp" or "breaks like a glass rod" triggers are the most difficult to shoot well. They more or less work like an on-off switch, making it harder to keep the trigger moving consistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matto6 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 47 minutes ago, Prange said: The so-called "crisp" or "breaks like a glass rod" triggers are the most difficult to shoot well. They more or less work like an on-off switch, making it harder to keep the trigger moving consistently. So why does everyone chase after them? Harder to master, but once you do, it's great?  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Matt can you share a picture of where your trigger finger is on the trigger in DA?  Pic(s) of grip too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reverse_edge Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Short answer: you can get over it with enough training. But is it worth it for you?  That said, I know why you're doing DA pulls only, but what's it look like when you shoot SA? There's only one DA pull per stage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 On 1/19/2021 at 9:31 AM, matto6 said: So why does everyone chase after them?  Beats me.....maybe BS left over from when bullseye with 1911s was the only game in town? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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