Hoops Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 We had a good exchange of information regarding 10/22 chassis.......Wiland, ModShot and Kidd.....under Kidd Chassis topic and the discussion shifted to ammo and recoil springs. So this topic was started to get feedback from others regarding ammo type and recoil springs in your set-up. My focus in my set up is for SCSA exclusively. My set-up using Magnum Research receiver and Kidd single stage trigger in each gun is: ModShot Chassis: 17" CF Magnum Research barrel. 10% reduction Kidd recoil spring. Kidd Chassis: Wiland 5" Sleeved Black Barrel (16"). 10% reduction Kidd recoil spring. Wiland Chassis: 16" Briley lightweight aluminum fluted barrel. Standard Kidd Recoil spring. I shoot HV ammo 95% of the time thru the 16"/17" barrels and 100% of the time thru the Wiland. If/when I shoot standard velocity ammo, I use only the 16"/17" barrels. My experience has been some reliability issues using standard velocity ammo with the Wiland barrel. My fellow shooters who also have Wiland barrels tend to think it has to do with the lack of pressure from the 5" Wiland barrel vs. the longer barrels. Looking forward to your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 I posted this on the Kidd Chassis thread before I realized you had started this thread. I'll repost with modifications. Hoops, I'm a sample of one, but here is what I found. I run a Tactical Innovations left-charging receiver and bolt and a Wiland LLW barrel. With a standard recoil spring everything works. However, some supposedly SV ammo does not eject very far. Geco SV Bolt Action is one of those. Norma Tac 22 is another. Both are slower than CCI SV, Eley Target or Fiocchi Performance Plus SV. Note: this testing was done with the guide rod that came with the receiver. The Kidd super slick guide rod made a difference. Since I will be shooting SV ammo all next year, I went with the 10% reduced recoil spring, just to be safe. Mid-velocity ammo like Gego Semi Auto (1150ish) and CCI AR Tactical (1200) run just fine with the standard recoil spring. Hot ammo like Eley Force (1250) slams the bolt against the buffer. You should use the heavy recoil spring with hot ammo. I went with the Benz chamber on the Wiland, because I also wanted to shoot 50 yard silhouettes and did not want to swap barrels. So far the only ammo that won't run in my Wiland is the CCI coated ammo. The coating is so thick the round won't chamber. In a perfect world I'd be able to get enough of the CCI AR Tactical to run in both rifle and pistol. As it stands, I have to bring two types of ammo to the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoops Posted December 29, 2020 Author Share Posted December 29, 2020 Good inforation/input. I should have added some additional information to my previous post. When I purchased the Kidd 3 pack recoil springs some time ago, I spoke with Kidd about their 3 springs. They are always friendly and know thier products well. Their response at the time was was that 22LR can vary within manufacturers, even within standard velocity and HV ratings. Also their are several types of bolts and receivers being used. The 3 springs were desiged to give the shooter the ability to time their bolt to their ammo. There was no concern with Kidd about bolt damage using any one of their 3 springs. I also use the Kidd bolt buffer which is a steel pin encased in a rubber sleeve. I like it. It is very durable and really dampens the bolt sound and feel. There are other polymer/synthetic buffers sold but I have no first hand knowledge of how they hold up or perform. Speaking only from my experience and observation with our local shooters (several with much more experience than me) who use the 5", sleeved Wiland barrel. We have opted to use the reduced recoil spring with it to insure reliability specifically with standard velocity ammo. However, I also use the same spring set-up when I shoot HV ammo from the Wiland. So in my case, I get reliabiltiy with both SV and HV using the reduced spring. I intend to put the reduced spring in the new MR just recieved so that all 4 of my guns are set up the same. By the way, I really like my Wiland barrel for SCSA and our other outlaw steel matches. It did take me a while to get used to the transitions with the lighter barrel but I'm there now. I put the Wiland in the Kidd chassis to achieve an overall weight, balance and feel that would be comparable to my ModShot and Wiland chassis'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xpierrat Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 I use the Wiland barrel and chassis.... Tactical innovations receiver, CPC reworked Ruger bolt, Kidd buffer, Kidd recoil system with a 10% spring shortened almost a 1/4 inch shooting CCI SV clean is my SC match standard. During this "off season " down here in NE Florida I swapped the recoil spring for a standard one and I am using up Federal white box 325 rd count ( 1200 FPS ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrdoran Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 I use Wiland barrel in a stock ruger chassis that I have made super slick via 2000 grit sanding. I use Kidd Bolt / Kidd recoil with a -10% spring. Kidd Buffer w/rubber per @zzt I run CCI SV / Eley Contact 90% of the time. 10% CCI mini mag. All run 100%. I ran the same setup prior to Wiland barrel with a kidd barrel. Saw no real change in reliability. Interesting the Eley Force comments. I bought a bunch but haven't shot them yet. Maybe I will bump up spring prior. Smoothing out your receiver inside with 1500-2000 grit where rub marks are really makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehunter Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 I little off topic but somewhat relevant. I went to the range on Sunday to test a couple different ammo options to see what my KIDD prefers. I am using the standard KIDD recoil spring and usually shoot Eley force in long range matches. I was curious to see whether there would be a significant difference in accuracy between different ammo for my barrel. It was an interesting experiment but the key as it relates to this topic is that I could definitely feel a significant difference in the action/bolt movement when I was shooting the force rounds. They are definitely much hotter than the others I tried, which were Eley std, RWS r50, Eley match, SK std, Center-x, Midas+, Eley benchrest semi-auto and X-act. Force measures at an average of 1180fps from my rifle (measured with a labradar over a 100 rounds) so I did not really think of it as an exceptionally hot round, but shooting it back to back with the others I could definitely feel the difference. As I mentioned, I am currently running the standard spring and Eley force tends to run fairly reliably. However, once in a while and usually during a match (which is when I do most of my shooting; not much time otherwise for practice) the bolt will not completely go into battery and a round will get stuck about three quarters into the chamber. This sometimes also happens when I rack it when preparing to start the stage. When that happens I save those rounds for inspection but thus far they looked good with no obvious damage or irregularities and I do not know if there is any pattern. What I am starting to do now is to number my magazines and document if there is any relation but at this point in time I cannot say definitively whether that could be a contributing factor. I have been wondering if I should switch to the 10% heavier spring but have not tried it yet. I am currently busy purchasing the parts to build a SCSA rifle and am planning on purchasing a Wiland barrel. Other that about a 1oz weight difference, is there any other difference between the black and stainless barrels? Also, I did not see the option for a benz chamber... that was probably a special order? Is the regular sporter chamber barrel too inaccurate at 50 yards for silhouette? This will primarily be a steel challenge rifle but I would like a little flexibility as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoops Posted December 29, 2020 Author Share Posted December 29, 2020 Couple quick comments. 1. Ely Force that I purchased last year (the all black version) is rated by Ely at 1250 fps. But it is also a 42 gr. bullet. 2. My stock Magnum Research CF 17" barrels that came with the switchbolt were bentz chamber. Very accurate. I had both reamed to sporter for SCSA. They are still very accurate and reliable. Most SCSA shooters that I know prefer sporter. 3. I had a SS Wiland but wanted a black one. I sold it to a fellow shooter who also had a black version. He says no difference to him in the way they shoot side by side. I could not feel any difference either when I shot my black version. Both will get a little warm to the hand if you wrap your thumb up and over the barrel. This is why I use bicycle grips to slide down over the barrel. I don't like gloves. Foam grips work just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 12 minutes ago, Eaglehunter said: Also, I did not see the option for a Benz chamber... that was probably a special order? Is the regular sporter chamber barrel too inaccurate at 50 yards for silhouette? This will primarily be a steel challenge rifle but I would like a little flexibility as well. When I bought mine the standard was a Benz chamber. Todd got tired of the complaints when using ammo such as CCI SV or any other heavily wax coated bullet. So he offered a Sport Chamber. Many sent their barrels back to have them rechambered. Eventually the Sport chamber became the standard. You can still have a barrel Benz chambered if you call him and order it that way. I told Todd I wanted to shoot 50 yard Silhouette and he recommended I stay with the Benz. He also told me if I cleaned the chamber every 300-350 rounds I'd never have a problem. So far I haven't. I can't speak to the accuracy of the Sport chamber. I can say that my barrel is capable of knocking down chicken silhouettes at 50 yards with every shot as long as I am using Fiocchi 40gr solid Performance SV ammo, or Eley Target. CCI SV, Norma Tac-22, Geco SV bolt action and Eley Action Plus (cheapo Force) is not. Win DynaPoint HP plated (1150fps) positively sucks, plus it doesn't feed well in my pistol. I haven't tried the Geco 40gr Semi-Auto yet. I'm saving that for pistol in case I can't get any more CCI AR Tactical. Eley Force. I have never chrono'd that, but it is considerably harsher than the AR Tactical. I also have feeding and extraction problems in my pistol. The oxidised black coating is rough and drags. If the chamber is not spotless and lubed I have problems. I run a line of oil over the top round in each mag and that helps a lot. For an 8 stage match I run a bore snake through after the fourth stage. I never have to do that with AR Tactical. Because I could, I bought 2000 Eley Action Plus. It is essentially Force without the black oxidation and looser specs. It is cheaper than Force and is more than accurate enough for SCSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoops Posted December 29, 2020 Author Share Posted December 29, 2020 I just measured a single Ely Force against a single CCI Mini mag so not a sampling Ely: .9997" oal CCI: .9745" oal Visually the Ely has a wider tip and slightly less taper than the CCI. Makes sense since Ely is 42 gr. and CCI is 40 gr. Perhaps enough to get caught occasionally not going into battery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrdoran Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 I think Eley Force moved off of the black cases due to difficulty in showing a clear chamber with black. However, food for thought.... Black Casings — Not Just for Looks Designed for power, ELEY force is a new, high-velocity .22LR round that delivers both superior energy AND accuracy. ELEY force features a new propellant with a distributed pressure curve. This provides more energy during the in-barrel “burn time”, accelerating the bullet to a high velocity. Force is optimized for semi-auto rimfire rifles. The cartridge brass for ELEY force is matte black, the result of a patented oxidisation process, first used with Eley edge (introduced in 2013). ELEY force is now the second type of ammo with black cases, which are dark for a good reason. According to ELEY’s engineers: “The black oxidized case finish increases friction between the case and projectile. This regulates and controls the force required to release the bullet, stabilizing the projectile and increasing ballistic consistency and accuracy.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 hour ago, jrdoran said: I think Eley Force moved off of the black cases due to difficulty in showing a clear chamber with black. However, food for thought.... Black Casings — Not Just for Looks Designed for power, ELEY force is a new, high-velocity .22LR round that delivers both superior energy AND accuracy. ELEY force features a new propellant with a distributed pressure curve. This provides more energy during the in-barrel “burn time”, accelerating the bullet to a high velocity. Force is optimized for semi-auto rimfire rifles. The cartridge brass for ELEY force is matte black, the result of a patented oxidisation process, first used with Eley edge (introduced in 2013). ELEY force is now the second type of ammo with black cases, which are dark for a good reason. According to ELEY’s engineers: “The black oxidized case finish increases friction between the case and projectile. This regulates and controls the force required to release the bullet, stabilizing the projectile and increasing ballistic consistency and accuracy.” They did. I bought 12 bricks a year+ ago, because I got a good deal and free shipping. I shot one up, got fed up, and sold the rest. People running Victories seem to love them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaylanGivens Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 On 12/29/2020 at 3:27 PM, xpierrat said: I use the Wiland barrel and chassis.... Tactical innovations receiver, CPC reworked Ruger bolt, Kidd buffer, Kidd recoil system with a 10% spring shortened almost a 1/4 inch shooting CCI SV clean is my SC match standard. During this "off season " down here in NE Florida I swapped the recoil spring for a standard one and I am using up Federal white box 325 rd count ( 1200 FPS ) Interesting that you're running CCI SV through a shortened 10% spring in a Wiland sleeved barrel... Did you decide to shorten the 10% spring because you had jams, or did it just seem to run smoother/better? That's very similar to the Wiland chassis/barrel that I'm putting together... Still waiting on some parts, so I haven't shot it yet... I use CCI SV ammo in my RFPO Ruger Mk 2/3 pistol with good results... My thoughts are that the CCI SV runs well in my pistol with a shorter barrel than the Wiland sleeved barrel... So it should work well with the Wiland sleeved barrel. Happy to read that you have good luck with the CCI SV ammo... I have a fair bit of it and plan to run it in SC RFRO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehunter Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Thank you very much for the answers and perspectives shared on my earlier questions. It is extremely helpful and I appreciate it very much. I plan on finalizing my orders with Wiland and KIDD tomorrow and am looking forward to participating in more steel challenge matches this year. From the information shared I am certain the feeding issues I’ve been experiencing during the longer range matches are all Force ammo related and therefore an easy fix. Also, I was not planning on using expensive ammo for the Steel challenge matches and were thinking about alternatives and your comments helped with that decision as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xpierrat Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 21 hours ago, RaylanGivens said: Interesting that you're running CCI SV through a shortened 10% spring in a Wiland sleeved barrel... Did you decide to shorten the 10% spring because you had jams, or did it just seem to run smoother/better? That's very similar to the Wiland chassis/barrel that I'm putting together... Still waiting on some parts, so I haven't shot it yet... I use CCI SV ammo in my RFPO Ruger Mk 2/3 pistol with good results... My thoughts are that the CCI SV runs well in my pistol with a shorter barrel than the Wiland sleeved barrel... So it should work well with the Wiland sleeved barrel. Happy to read that you have good luck with the CCI SV ammo... I have a fair bit of it and plan to run it in SC RFRO. To be clear I am running the "clean" blue head CCI SV I have run the regular CCI SV before with success but the heavy wax on the bullet heads was a problem in cold weather and greatly increased the need for cleaning the mags and rifle. With CCI "clean" I found that I would get a very occasional round that did not sound quite right and even sometimes would not cycle properly I felt that this variance in FPS was probably going to be the norm for this ammo so I started playing with the spring cutting a little at a time and used CCI subsonic ( I think ) that was rated at 970 FPS .... once I had that running nearly 100% I was where I wanted to be for match reliability with the CCI SV clean. I would not run any HV with that spring though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrdoran Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 @xpierrat Rick, great shooting with you yesterday. Had a good time. Flagler is beautiful. Glad you got the trigger all figured out in between strings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaylanGivens Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, xpierrat said: To be clear I am running the "clean" blue head CCI SV I have run the regular CCI SV before with success but the heavy wax on the bullet heads was a problem in cold weather and greatly increased the need for cleaning the mags and rifle. With CCI "clean" I found that I would get a very occasional round that did not sound quite right and even sometimes would not cycle properly I felt that this variance in FPS was probably going to be the norm for this ammo so I started playing with the spring cutting a little at a time and used CCI subsonic ( I think ) that was rated at 970 FPS .... once I had that running nearly 100% I was where I wanted to be for match reliability with the CCI SV clean. I would not run any HV with that spring though. Thanks for the explanation... First I have heard of the 'Clean' CCI SV ammo... I Googled it and found an interesting article comparing the clean and standard versions of CCI 22 ammo: https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2019/5/14/tested-cci-clean-22-ammo/ I have a lot of the standard CCI SV ammo and plan to use it in my Wiland chassis and sleeved barrel (once I get them)... If I have any trouble at this point, it would probably be easier/cheaper for me to buy a second barrel than to find different .22 ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, RaylanGivens said: I have a lot of the standard CCI SV ammo and plan to use it in my Wiland chassis and sleeved barrel (once I get them)... If I have any trouble at this point, it would probably be easier/cheaper for me to buy a second barrel than to find different .22 ammo. The trouble with CCI SV is they put a LOT of wax on the bullets and it gets hard when it is cold. The fact that CCI SV is about .010" longer than everyone else does not help either. I ran SV in my Benz chambered Wiland barrel in the Dec match with only one FtF. Temps ranged from 30 to almost 40. Any colder than that and I'll switch to Eley Target, which I have a lot of. Other 22 ammo with soft (almost liquid) wax is SK Standard +, Wolf, Lapua, GECO Semi-Auto, etc. Stay away from CCI clean ammo. I bought a bunch of the original red, white and blue stuff and it would not chamber in either pistol or the Wiland barrel. I sold it all cheap. I later tried some of the red and blue and had the same problem, just not quite as bad. CCI AR Tactical runs all year long. If you can find some, try it. If I could buy more I'd be using it for both pistol and rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xpierrat Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 On 1/5/2021 at 4:44 PM, jrdoran said: @xpierrat Rick, great shooting with you yesterday. Had a good time. Flagler is beautiful. Glad you got the trigger all figured out in between strings Hey same here Jim come back anytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xpierrat Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 If anybody has any CCI "clean" SV that they do not want I have CCI SV that I can swap if you are going to GA state or the Worlds... lets make a deal If you are using CCI SV in colder weather I actually would rub the round down one by one to remove a large percentage of the wax. Keep them and mags warm with hand warmers and it will run fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BentAero Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 I had great luck with CCI clean HV red white blue. Very rare to have a failure. I just finished my second case. I've got a case of the CCI clean pink, and it's been troublesome. Multiple feed failures. Just started using Eley Force, and so far it's fed and fired 100% Chrono'd these three the other day in my new Wiland barrel... CCI RWB clean 40 grain 1077 ft/s 37 es 12 SD 43 avg pf CCI clean pink 40 grain 1077 ft/s 28 es 12 sd 43 avg pf Eley Force 42 grain 1073 ft/s 32 es 11 sd 45 avg pf Even though the numbers are similar, the Eley has noticeably more felt recoil. I'll take that trade-off if it's consistently reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 10 hours ago, BentAero said: Eley Force 42 grain 1073 ft/s 32 es 11 sd 45 avg pf Wow! That's only 63 fps faster than standard Eley Target (1090 nominal) in my Wiland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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