Is it really possible to make the gun recoil straight up and down?

[matto6]

I'm relatively new and working on my grip and follow up shots.   I'm using a Mantis X10 to track my recoil path and it's slighly diagonal no matter what I do.  I spent an hour gripping with my support hand, different angles, etc.  I discovered the importance of locking my wrists (it reduced muzzle climb significantly over just squeezing the hell out of the grip) but I was unable to change the recoil angle much.

Do people actually get it going straight up and down?  Does it really matter, or should I just let it be diagonal and focus on learning to be consistent?

Edited December 24, 2020 by matto6

[SGT_Schultz]

12 hours ago, matto6 said:

I'm relatively new and working on my grip and follow up shots.   I'm using a Mantis X10 to track my recoil path and it's slighly diagonal no matter what I do.  I spent an hour gripping with my support hand, different angles, etc.  I discovered the importance of locking my wrists (it reduced muzzle climb significantly over just squeezing the hell out of the grip) but I was unable to change the recoil angle much.

Do people actually get it going straight up and down?  Does it really matter, or should I just let it be diagonal and focus on learning to be consistent?

 

Three things I look for from my grip and trigger manipulation

1. Dot is on target when I bring up the gun to my line of sight
2. Dot does not move when the trigger breaks
3. Dot returns to where it started at the end of the recoil cycle

Once I have that, I work to minimize (because you can't eliminate it) muzzle rise.

 

Question for you: where are shots landing when recoil path is diagonal?  At point of aim or somewhere else?

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[Joe4d]

You didnt mention your gun setup.
I imagine with the right compensator, lots of tuning of ammo , comp cuts and grip its  possible.
Does it matter ? IMO no.

Where do the sights end up after the shot ? Gun could go straight sideways on recoil as long as it comes back to point of aim.

Many stock guns are over sprung,,, so the slide slamming forward is actually harder than the recoil. So gun fires, recoils up,, say  30 degrees... But then slide slams forward and gun dips past flat 30 degrees. Why you see alot of discussions about guys running lighter than factory recoil springs.

[IVC]

One more vote for "it doesn't really matter," but it doesn't mean you can be sloppy.

 

Your grip should be consistent for the sake of consistency*, which means that the controllable aspects of your recoil tracking should be similar shot-to-shot as long as you're shooting from the similar stance and at similar speed. What these aspects end up being will depend quite a bit on construction of your gun and fine details of your grip (both the anatomy of your hands and the shape of the gun's grip). If there is a natural place for gun to move to, or if there is asymmetry in gun construction, its position relative to your hands, etc., the gun will NOT go straight up-and-down, but it will come back to where it started. You need the latter... Also, you are holding the gun quite differently with each hand, so by the very nature of the process it will tend to go in different directions from the straight up-down. 

 

*The "consistency for the sake of consistency" sounds silly, but it's just a way to say that minimizing inconsistencies minimizes randomness in your shooting. If you could completely eliminate it, you'd be shooting one-hole Bill drills at any distance. Nobody can do that. What people CAN do is minimize randomness of the process by gaining consistency (just another word for the same thing - high consistency = low randomness), which in turn allows them to have *small* groups at high speed. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by IVC

[Miranda]

advice and responses given so far, I like.

 

To attempt to add to this, a careful and close answer is no. 

the recoil includes the twist from the rifling.

it is never straight up and down.  it just looks that way.

 

...an aside,  without the rifling you will lose a lot of accuracy

so it is not a normal consideration...

 

With your hands as the mount of a pistol,

the pistol is going to move after you set a bullet in motion.

Plan on it.

watch the sights and  aim your next shot...

 

miranda

[Youngeyes]

Good advice so far. I would like to add that with a different load and bullet weight, you can change the recoil effects to more suit your tastes. Snappy recoil vs push recoil .

[RangerTrace]

I seems to recall BEnos saying in his book that the gun doesn't have to recoil straight up and down as long as it returns to the same spot each time. 

[GrumpyOne]

1 hour ago, RangerTrace said:

I seems to recall BEnos saying in his book that the gun doesn't have to recoil straight up and down as long as it returns to the same spot each time. 

I believe you are correct. 

[matto6]

On 12/24/2020 at 10:42 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

Question for you: where are shots landing when recoil path is diagonal?  At point of aim or somewhere else?

 

That depends on whether I anticipate the recoil or not      I have a problem with shot anticipation that I'm struggling with, but slowly improving.  If I manage not to flinch, I hit dead on.  But some percent of the time they hit way low left. 

But I think none of that is related to the recoil path itself.  Totally different fish to fry.

 

 

[matto6]

On 12/24/2020 at 11:56 AM, Joe4d said:

You didnt mention your gun setup.
...

Where do the sights end up after the shot ? Gun could go straight sideways on recoil as long as it comes back to point of aim.

Nothing fancy added to the gun.  Production.

I have a couple different guns, which react differently.  But the Beretta LTT tends to come back right on target very nicely.    I think it's the gun I'm going to stick with for a while.  

[matto6]

On 12/27/2020 at 1:52 PM, Miranda said:

the recoil includes the twist from the rifling.

it is never straight up and down.  it just looks that way.

Ahhh, the rifling.  I hadn't thought of that.

Yeah I'm not too worried about the diagonal but I've heard a few times to "Try to make it straight up and down".  I guess that was bad advice.

I'm reading Ben Stoegers book now.  Maybe he'll touch on this topic.

Thanks everyone!

[Miranda]

in this time of short ammo supply...

this may be tough to do.

you will get this advice from a number of different places

if you can, don't aim at any thing while you send a few

dozen rounds into the backstop/berm.

(be sure you are safe and that no bullets go flying or cause problems)

Watch the pistol and try to avoid flinching.

you are likely to see brass flying and powder flashes.

I dumped a magazine as quick as I could several times.

 

this is considered a good way to learn to stop flinch.

 

It is pretty effective...

and some range masters dislike it when you do it.

 

miranda

[Joe4d]

One of the advantages of a wrist lock thumb forward grip is countering that torque.

Ever shoot a bow and and learn how to rotate your elbow out so it doesnt get fileted by the bow string ?

When I shoot I basically do the same kinda into the gun rotation with my strong hand thumb.

[Miranda]

hi joe4d,

the twist comment is mostly proof that a pistol has a lot of

forces pushing on it.

 

If I were left handed and making my own pistol,

I think I'd want counter clockwise rifling... 

 

fun stuff trying to sort out what is better or helps.

 

me... I think my single biggest gain in accuracy

would be the clear eyed no blink/flinch I see in some good shooters.

 

miranda

[IVC]

On 12/29/2020 at 3:21 PM, matto6 said:

That depends on whether I anticipate the recoil or not      I have a problem with shot anticipation that I'm struggling with, but slowly improving.  If I manage not to flinch, I hit dead on.  But some percent of the time they hit way low left. 

But I think none of that is related to the recoil path itself.  Totally different fish to fry.

 

 

There is a big confusion between "flinching" and "anticipation"  (driving the gun) on follow-up shots.  

 

Flinching is when you don't have the correct trigger control and cannot execute a slow trigger press in accuracy mode. One can argue that flinching is also if you cannot execute a fast pull-through trigger pull, but I personally would call it a "grip and trigger pull issue" rather than flinching. If you can do both, i.e., you can shoot accurately (enough) in bullseye mode, and, you can take the sight picture and on timer pull the trigger in about 0.2s or less without missing, say, the upper A zone at 15 yards, you don't have a problem with flinching. 

 

What happens when you start shooting fast follow-ups is something quite different. There is extensive coverage of this issue and it takes central part in all advanced shooting books, goes hand-in-hand with calling the shots and it's usually confusing to both understand and master. I believe Stoeger (and others) call it "predictive shooting," where you don't have enough time to do the usual cycle of "aim, confirm sight picture, pull the trigger." Instead, you're pulling the trigger as you *know* the gun will get back into position and you are *confirming* good hits via "shot calling." 

 

What helped me understand the concept was trying to figure out how to explain it to others, so I use a visual of "shooting a fully automatic firearm." Do you aim when shooting full-auto? Of course. Are you going through the process of "confirm sights, pull trigger, follow through?" Of course not. As long as you hold the trigger down you are in a follow-through mode, where you're holding a bucking gun on target as the bullets fly. The main goal is to prevent it from "climbing," where each shot puts it higher. Instead, you put a steady and correct pressure into it to keep it "on target." (And, you *identify* shots as they are fired, so you know if you missed any.) Now, this pressure can be quite passive, where you let your body and posture passively return the gun to where it needs to be, or you can "lean into it" to keep it where it needs to be. If there is a misfire as you're leaning into the gun, the muzzle will slightly dip and it will look like a flinch, but it's not.

 

So, trying to fix driving the gun with the techniques for preventing flinching is useless. It's not the same problem and it's not the same cause. That's why people get frustrated when they are way past the flinching phase, yet they pull some shots low and left in competition or training. 

[Miranda]

I love this forum

 

it seems so easy...

line up target, front site, and back site.  Pull trigger.

 

If you watch what you are doing

you will see your mistakes

 

From a TV show title...

Don't blink.

 

Brian Enos gives the advice to get interested in your shooting and watch yourself shoot.

you got sumptin' else to do when your pistol is barking?

 

miranda

[Blackstone45]

On 1/2/2021 at 7:16 PM, IVC said:

There is a big confusion between "flinching" and "anticipation"  (driving the gun) on follow-up shots.  

 

Flinching is when you don't have the correct trigger control and cannot execute a slow trigger press in accuracy mode. One can argue that flinching is also if you cannot execute a fast pull-through trigger pull, but I personally would call it a "grip and trigger pull issue" rather than flinching. If you can do both, i.e., you can shoot accurately (enough) in bullseye mode, and, you can take the sight picture and on timer pull the trigger in about 0.2s or less without missing, say, the upper A zone at 15 yards, you don't have a problem with flinching. 

 

What happens when you start shooting fast follow-ups is something quite different. There is extensive coverage of this issue and it takes central part in all advanced shooting books, goes hand-in-hand with calling the shots and it's usually confusing to both understand and master. I believe Stoeger (and others) call it "predictive shooting," where you don't have enough time to do the usual cycle of "aim, confirm sight picture, pull the trigger." Instead, you're pulling the trigger as you *know* the gun will get back into position and you are *confirming* good hits via "shot calling." 

 

What helped me understand the concept was trying to figure out how to explain it to others, so I use a visual of "shooting a fully automatic firearm." Do you aim when shooting full-auto? Of course. Are you going through the process of "confirm sights, pull trigger, follow through?" Of course not. As long as you hold the trigger down you are in a follow-through mode, where you're holding a bucking gun on target as the bullets fly. The main goal is to prevent it from "climbing," where each shot puts it higher. Instead, you put a steady and correct pressure into it to keep it "on target." (And, you *identify* shots as they are fired, so you know if you missed any.) Now, this pressure can be quite passive, where you let your body and posture passively return the gun to where it needs to be, or you can "lean into it" to keep it where it needs to be. If there is a misfire as you're leaning into the gun, the muzzle will slightly dip and it will look like a flinch, but it's not.

 

So, trying to fix driving the gun with the techniques for preventing flinching is useless. It's not the same problem and it's not the same cause. That's why people get frustrated when they are way past the flinching phase, yet they pull some shots low and left in competition or training. 

I think this describes me perfectly. When shooting doubles, I've caught myself myself freezing on the trigger on the second shot, and noticing my gun dipping down. But it's not a jerky dip down, as you would see in a real flinch, it feels like a smooth motion as if I was steadily wrestling the gun back down from recoil. The general method for fixing this seems to be to grip less hard with the strong hand, and make up for it with more weak hand grip?

Edited January 4, 2021 by Blackstone45

[IVC]

On 1/4/2021 at 8:31 AM, Blackstone45 said:

The general method for fixing this seems to be to grip less hard with the strong hand, and make up for it with more weak hand grip?

That's the usual way because all you are trying to do is to make sure the gun gets back to the shooting position in the same spot.

 

However, I am beginning to think that it's somewhat overrated to try to eliminate muzzle dipping in the same way that "muzzle straight up and down" is overrated - yes, you need consistency (and a lot of it), but no, it's not the details of the movement that make the difference, it's the ability to get the muzzle back on target in the same spot. If you look at slow motion of a muzzle fired by any of the top guys, it will move. It will move up, it will move down, it will move slightly to the side and alike. Singling out "down movement" as unacceptable is akin to singling out, e.g., movement to the side as unacceptable - what's the difference, right? The gun *will* move, you have to accept it so why be artificially picky about some directions of movement? Normally, you have to use as much passive technique as possible to minimize dipping and because it provides "free consistency," but it's this consistency that you care about and not the lack of dipping. Or at least it should be. Now, if you have a really good passive control (grip and stance) as a baseline and you add some active control that will keep those shoots tighter at higher speed, if you can measure it to work better, but it still produced a dip on a misfire, why not use it anyways? It's performance that matters, not the technique. 

[Dranoel]

I've said a dozen times on here (and other forums) I don't care where the dot or sights go when the gun goes BANG!. The front sight/dot could go up 3" and do a figure 8 for all I care. Two things are important to me in this aspect of shooting:

 

1. Where were the sights at the instant the round fired? (not 0.010 sec after)

2. Did the sights return to the original point of aim after the gun cycled.

 

Anything in between is irrelevant. But understand this: In order to achieve a positive answer on #2, you are going to need a NEUTRAL GRIP. Tight and firm, yes, absolutely. But both hands and both arms need to be exerting the same force to do so. If one is pushing/pulling harder than the other your sights will not return to NPA.

 

Why is that important? Because it takes time to re-adjust your sight picture after the shot. If you are neutral and your sights automatically return to you NPA, then all you need to do is have your eyes on the center of the target and the sights will be there when you squeeze the trigger. 

[USMC_JR]

On 1/4/2021 at 10:31 AM, Blackstone45 said:

I think this describes me perfectly. When shooting doubles, I've caught myself myself freezing on the trigger on the second shot, and noticing my gun dipping down. But it's not a jerky dip down, as you would see in a real flinch, it feels like a smooth motion as if I was steadily wrestling the gun back down from recoil. The general method for fixing this seems to be to grip less hard with the strong hand, and make up for it with more weak hand grip?

I'm so glad I found this even though its a bit old.  As IVC perfectly laid out, repeat follow up shots require anticipating.  I've been working on this pretty hard the past couple of weeks and what I'm finding seems to be a bit of what Blackstone has found.  If i hesitate little waiting for the dot or sight to come back onto center I can end up driving low.  This happens with a Sig or a 2011 with around 17 degrees of grip angle.  With a glock I seem to take the low shots out due to the increased angle and easier lock in my left wrist.

 

The thing I am finding, and came here to check on, is it seems like the rhythm of the shots is the most important thing.  Shooting "as" the dot comes into the target area requires trust and timing.  I get a lot faster when i just go and I'm always a bit surprised how accurate I can be, but as soon as i hesitate the sights runs through the target area and I'm low.

 

What a great hobby!

[lgh]

On 12/24/2020 at 9:42 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

• Dot is on target when I bring up the gun to my line of sight
• Dot does not move when the trigger breaks
• Dot returns to where it started at the end of the recoil cycle

This is an old thread but this is all you need to know. When the gun is in recoil, your attention should be shifting to the next target and the gun ends up where it started - aligned with the (new) target. All much easier said than quickly done!

[GunBugBit]

For me the neutral grip is the grip that most consistently makes the sights return to the alignment they had before the last shot.  It’s been a while since I read Brian’s book but this is what the neutral grip came to mean to me.

 

For a time a thought the key might be raw crush force from the support hand.  Big factor yes but there’s also some specific pressure I need from my strong hand thumb riding the safety and the lower fingers of that same hand.  When I get it right my second shot in a fast double makes a hole pretty close to the first hole.

[GunBugBit]

On 4/24/2022 at 1:48 PM, USMC_JR said:

…it seems like the rhythm of the shots is the most important thing…

It’s huge!  You can both see and feel this rhythm, so once your brain has experience with a gun’s cycling with a certain load and spring setup, you learn to time your trigger presses optimally.

Edited July 18, 2023 by GunBugBit

[beltfedgoodness]

This exactly is my experience, consistency and repeatability 

[B585]

I worked on this for quite a while.  Agree that it is a neutral grip that’s important although I struggled to figure out what neutral is.  The platform (specifically how the gun fits in your hands) also makes a difference.   I don’t put the grip/tension the same on a Canik vs the Sig.   Now that I have mostly overcome this issue, I have seen constantly improvement in my shooting and placement.