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CM 13-06 Penalty Question


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I normally don't hang around a thread this long.  Usually, it's one comment and I leave it to the players.

I suspect some of you are still confused why "double jeopardy" is treated differently on some of the scenarios which have been quoted here.  The simple explanation is that it depends on the action(s) involved.

For example - If a single shot were to result in two different violations, you would need to consider which of the two to penalize to avoid DJ.  A bit of judgment applies here.

If, on the other hand, the two violations were to be the result of two separate shots/events (such as in the subject of this thread), then both penalties apply.  In this scenario, both the Stacking and the Failure to Reload.

I hope this helps.

VC can be a challenge to a shooter, but it's also a challenge to the RO.  In both conditions, you have to be mentally prepared for the challenge, lest you Zero the stage or apply incorrect penalties.

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7 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

The stacking violation occurred because shooter shot too many shots before reload at T1 and T2 and too few shots at T4 and T5 before reload.  In the rulebook example shooter got two procedurals because T1 and T2 were both incorrectly engaged.  Here T1, T2, T4, and T5 were incorrectly engaged, so I don't see why it's not 4 for stacking?  Rulebook makes no mention of shooter having to save time on target transitions to get procedurals or that targets have to be engaged with consecutive shots, just that targets aren't shot as specified in the WSB.

 

Blog post doesn't indicate reload is separate from shooting actions.  In Stage B in blog post shooter did not get a penalty for firing an extra shot before the mandatory reload because he was already assessed an extra shot penalty.  The next paragraph goes on to say if the shooter did the same thing (fires 1 extra shot before mandatory reload), but didn't also earn an extra shot procedural, then he'd get the mandatory reload procedural.  So per the blog, firing an extra shot before a mandatory reload doesn't always incur a procedural if it shooter was already given one for a "shooting action" as you call it.

 

Isn't this stuff fun!  😀

Let me take a crack at this:

Shooter engages T1 with two rounds - immediately earns a stacking procedural

Shooter engages T2 with two rounds - ditto

Shooter engages T3, T5, and T4 with one round each - no penalties to this point, but now a reload is required:

Shooter engages T3 with a second round - one procedural for round fired after the point where reload was required.

Shooter fumbles with magazine, but does not reload, because he reinserts same mag - no change too procedurals

Shooter engages T4 and T5 with one round each, earning the second and third procedurals for firing rounds after missing a required reload.

 

The actual reload made after engaging T3 the first time is irrelevant - the shooter is free to reload at that point, but this reload does not satisfy the requirements of the course description, which required engaging T1-5 with one round each prior to the reload.  

 

To look at the math differently: Shooter fired seven rounds, earning two stacking penalties, before hitting the reload point.  Shooter fired three rounds after hitting the reload point without making a reload, earning a procedural for each round fired.  Shooter earned the stacking penalties because he didn't reengage the targets after the reload (If he'd fired two at each of T1 and T2 because he thought he missed with the first round on each, and if he then reengaged them after a correct reload, we'd call those extra shot penalties rather than stacking penalties, and look for extra hits as we scored the targets.  Shooter earned penalties for the firing the second rounds at T3-5 after not having made the required reload.....

 

Did that help?

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Definition of stacked shots:  "Shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing"

 

T1 and T2 were shot too many times before the reload, but if going based off the point when the reload was required, which other targets were shot too few times?  T3-T5 were each shot once before the point reload was required, and once after, which is in accordance with the WSB.  It would actually be impossible to shoot any target too few times before the required reload point, since that occurs after each target is shot once.

 

Therefore, I think for purposes of assessing stacking penalties, you have to look at the point when the shooter actually did reload, not when he was supposed to.  Since there has to be a mistimed reload for stacking to occur (for single string stages).  So now, we have the shooter shooting T1 and T2 too many times, and T4 and T5 too few times before he did reload, and then the reverse after he reloaded.  That's why I say 4 penalties for stacking, because 4 targets were incorrectly engaged (9.4.5.3).

 

I'm good on the 3 procedurals for 10.2.4, that's the easy part.  I questioned whether the shots fired after the reload that were part of all the stacking should also be penalized under 10.2.4, but really there's nothing in rulebook that says double jeopardy is even a thing (outside of 10.2.2, which doesn't apply here).

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"Instead of trying to look at the point where the shooter did the reload, really try to realize the truth... there was no reload yet and it was only stacking."

 

This reminds me of the mental block some have trying to score perforation hits, like on a NS covering A zone.  " It touches the A behind the NS, what do you mean it doesn't exist?". Then once it clicks, they can't unsee it.  It just takes a little bit of time and patience... Right? :)  

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Southpaw,

The rule says "incorrectly engaged".  In this case, they are supposed to be engaged with one shot at a time.

T1 and T2 were engaged with consecutive shots.  Two stacking penalties.  All other targets were only engaged with single shots, so no penalty there.

I understand that you are wanting to link it to the reload (as would likely be done if more shots were required), but because only one shot was required that simply confuses the issue in this case.

Penalties (all penalties) have to be obvious. 

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if you are faulting in a VC, SHO, fire an extra shot, outside the shooting area freestyle, and hit the perf on a No shoot, aren't you getting multiple penalties for the same shot?

Foot Fault 10.2.1
Touching the gun with support hand during Strong hand only 10.2.8.1
Extra shot 9.4.5.1
Extra Hit 9.4.5.2
1 no shoot


will you get scored for all of them, does the double jeopardy rule apply, if it will apply, how is this scored?

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Yes, each are penalized.  Each of those actions are independent and all penalized under separate specific rules.

 

DJ primarily applies to 10.2.2 (stage procedure i.e. "Do this" or "Don't do that") which is a "general rule".  Whenever a specific rule applies, you use that and don't also apply 10.2.2

 

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12 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

Let me take a crack at this:

Shooter engages T1 with two rounds - immediately earns a stacking procedural

Shooter engages T2 with two rounds - ditto

Shooter engages T3, T5, and T4 with one round each - no penalties to this point, but now a reload is required:

Shooter engages T3 with a second round - one procedural for round fired after the point where reload was required.

Shooter fumbles with magazine, but does not reload, because he reinserts same mag - no change too procedurals

Shooter engages T4 and T5 with one round each, earning the second and third procedurals for firing rounds after missing a required reload.

 

The actual reload made after engaging T3 the first time is irrelevant - the shooter is free to reload at that point, but this reload does not satisfy the requirements of the course description, which required engaging T1-5 with one round each prior to the reload.  

 

To look at the math differently: Shooter fired seven rounds, earning two stacking penalties, before hitting the reload point.  Shooter fired three rounds after hitting the reload point without making a reload, earning a procedural for each round fired.  Shooter earned the stacking penalties because he didn't reengage the targets after the reload (If he'd fired two at each of T1 and T2 because he thought he missed with the first round on each, and if he then reengaged them after a correct reload, we'd call those extra shot penalties rather than stacking penalties, and look for extra hits as we scored the targets.  Shooter earned penalties for the firing the second rounds at T3-5 after not having made the required reload.....

 

Did that help?

 

That's where I was heading with the "pretend the first reload didn't happen" comment I made a few hundred (seemingly) pages ago

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19 minutes ago, George Jones said:

Yes, each are penalized.  Each of those actions are independent and all penalized under separate specific rules.

 

DJ primarily applies to 10.2.2 (stage procedure i.e. "Do this" or "Don't do that") which is a "general rule".  Whenever a specific rule applies, you use that and don't also apply 10.2.2

 

so in the original question, if the shooter put 2 consecutive shots on T1-T5 and never reloaded as required, it would be just the 5 stacking procedurals?

No Procedurals for no reload?

Does not change the score, 5 penalties is losing 50 points on a 50 point stage, just trying to figure out how the right way to score this.

I know you didn't want to get dragged back in, I appreciate your help on this.

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I agree.

The reload is not required until engaging all five targets, so no penalty for that since he wouldn't have fired any shots after it was required.

Isn't VC fun?  It's a bit like alcohol.  If there are too many violations, VC makes my head hurt.

 

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5 hours ago, George Jones said:

Southpaw,

The rule says "incorrectly engaged".  In this case, they are supposed to be engaged with one shot at a time.

T1 and T2 were engaged with consecutive shots.  Two stacking penalties.  All other targets were only engaged with single shots, so no penalty there.

I understand that you are wanting to link it to the reload (as would likely be done if more shots were required), but because only one shot was required that simply confuses the issue in this case.

Penalties (all penalties) have to be obvious. 

 

Definition of stacked shots:  "Shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing"

 

It seems you're saying T1 and T2 were shot too many times and are the only targets involved in the stacking, but for stacking to occur other targets also need to be shot too few times.  So which are those targets?  And since other targets are shot too few times, aren't they also "incorrectly engaged"?

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I don't disagree with your concern.

That's a problem with the "one shot" procedure.  It doesn't fit the usual mold.  So if you understand the "normal" concept of stacking you recognize that you have a problem here.

So what I rely on is my concept that you don't apply penalties unless you are certain of the violation.  In this case, I would not call it because it's a grey area and I don't penalize that color.

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whole lot of nonsense caused by dumb rules.
Eliminate VA count,,, eliminate these dumb classifiers,
OR put rule in,,, Follow procedure or zero stage...
Seems all these stacking, wrong reloads,,, yadda yadda discussions tend to always be about a zero stage anyways. Folks argue about how many procedurals,, 5 / 10 / 20 ? 
WHO CARES you got a zero,,, there are no negatives in USPSA.

Stages like this tend to be only classifiers, which in itself another bag of stupid..
Lets use a COF to grade shooters that will NEVER happen at a match. OTHER than this stupid classifier.

Seriously... 4 pages and still arguments on how to score it.
Should be obvious,,, either the stage needs to go, or the rules need fixed.

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32 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

whole lot of nonsense caused by dumb rules.
Eliminate VA count,,, eliminate these dumb classifiers,
OR put rule in,,, Follow procedure or zero stage...
Seems all these stacking, wrong reloads,,, yadda yadda discussions tend to always be about a zero stage anyways. Folks argue about how many procedurals,, 5 / 10 / 20 ? 
WHO CARES you got a zero,,, there are no negatives in USPSA.

Stages like this tend to be only classifiers, which in itself another bag of stupid..
Lets use a COF to grade shooters that will NEVER happen at a match. OTHER than this stupid classifier.

Seriously... 4 pages and still arguments on how to score it.
Should be obvious,,, either the stage needs to go, or the rules need fixed.

why not just follow the rules and score it as shot?

If the RO can't figure out how to score a stage, they should give someone else the timer or learn how to score a stage.

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I’ve been at this game a long time, and I’ve been an RO for at least 10 years. I’ve had shooters screw up a stage so bad there was no way I could figure out how to score it. Sometimes it’s the wording of the stage, the rules, the shooter trying to game it, and other factors you just know was going to happen.

 

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1 hour ago, DirkD said:

why not just follow the rules and score it as shot?

If the RO can't figure out how to score a stage, they should give someone else the timer or learn how to score a stage.

If an RO cant figure out how to score a stage your rule book sucks

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pffffffffffff,   shouldnt be that hard to read a rule book.
Current rule book is actually not so bad,

Current rulings from "Troys" and others can be a head scratcher  though.

These stacking, VA count, mandatory orders always get confusing

Edited by Joe4d
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1 hour ago, DirkD said:

why not just follow the rules and score it as shot?

If the RO can't figure out how to score a stage, they should give someone else the timer or learn how to score a stage.

 

We are on page 4 of "how many ways should we penalize this guy"

 

I'm going to say there MAY be a better system. 

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(5) total, (3) for stacking, (2) for shooting before mandatory reload. 

 

The shooter NEVER did the mandatory reload. 

  • T1 
  • T1 = stack penalty
  • T2 
  • T2 = stack penalty
  • T3
  • Reload (irrelevant) 
  • T3 = stack penalty
  • T4
  • T5
  • Removes mag and doesn't reload (not performing reload after engaging T1-T5)
  • T4 = penalty for not reloading before engaging
  • T5 = Penalty for not reloading before engaging

 

You can reload whenever you want... as long as you reload after shooting T1-T5, that's the only reload that matters. 

Edited by mikeg1005
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12 hours ago, George Jones said:

Mikeg,

As you listed it, you are correct.  Unfortunately, you misquoted the original sequence so only two stacking penalties.

 

You're right, he shot T5, T4, T3 after the reload but why wouldn't he get the 3rd stacking?  The shooter did not reload after engaging all (5) targets before he engage T3 again.  Wouldn't this be a stacking penalty since in essence he's still shooting the first array? 

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Shooter engages T1 with two shots, T2 with two shots, and T3 with one shot. Shooter then makes a reload, and engages T5 with one shot, T4 with one shot, and T3 with one shot.

 

You misquoted the OP's engagement order (quoted above).  Your third penalty does not exist.

 

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1 hour ago, George Jones said:

Shooter engages T1 with two shots, T2 with two shots, and T3 with one shot. Shooter then makes a reload, and engages T5 with one shot, T4 with one shot, and T3 with one shot.

 

You misquoted the OP's engagement order (quoted above).  Your third penalty does not exist.

 

 

You are correct I did but either way isn't this still a stacking on T3?

 

Shooter put (2) shots on T1, T2, and T3 BEFORE the mandatory reload (mandated after engaging T1-T5).  


T3 (like T1 and T2) cannot be reengaged until a reload is performed upon shooting all 5 targets.

 

Or am I missing something.  What makes T3 different than T1 and T2? 

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