driver8M3 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, George Jones said: Damn! Made me go back to the OP. Two targets incorrectly engaged. Two procedurals. Plus the reload thing. I mean the rulebook example...how would you score that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 No need. The explanation covers it. You seem to keep insisting that the definition/example of STACKING should include the reload violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) Isn't this just 5 stacking penalties? The first reload doesn't count as it didn't happen at the prescribed time, and the second one wasn't a reload at all. So essentially the shooter shot everything with two rounds without performing the mandatory reload at all. Just because T1 was two, then T2 was two and T3-T5 where one each then one again, its still two per without the mandatory reload having been performed. So more shots on every target (two instead of one) while shooting every target with fewer than required (none instead of one), which matches the definition of stacked shots in the glossary. Stacking as a rule would not exist if it did not take precedent over the mandatory reload rule as there would be no need for it, so it makes sense to apply 5 stacking, but 2 stacking and 3 for the mandatory reload gets the same result. I just think 5 stacking is more appropriate. Edited December 22, 2020 by broadside72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 This is where I step out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, George Jones said: This is where I step out! This thread is confusing as are many of the Virginia ones. I think a clean step by step explanation would be better. Unfortunately I am not able to follow your posts and get a clear understanding of your reasoning as you are replying to various posts. I'd like to understand how the RMI thinks step by step. I just don't think your posts are coming across in a definitive manner that can be followed from first shot to last shot of the scenario being asked about. Edited December 22, 2020 by broadside72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, driver8M3 said: Have you read the example of stacked shots yet? It very clearly includes a mandatory reload that was done early (just like in the situation described in this thread). In the example, they assessed two procedurals for stacking...and zero for mistiming the mandatory reload. There are many, many ways to write an example of stacking. The one the rules writers chose to use includes a mistimed mandatory reload. And because they are already penalizing under stacking (because it's the most appropriate penalty), they do not also penalize under 10.2.4. You seem to be under the impression that an ignored mandatory reload is a prerequisite for stacking to occur. It's not. You're hanging your entire argument on one example which, as others have already mentioned, is NOT all inclusive nor an exclusive definition. I don't give a s#!t about the glossary's example. Here is The Definition which is ALL that matters when it comes to defining stacked shots: Shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing. Period. Full stop. Mandatory reloads are not part of the definition of stacked shots which means omitting one is a completely separate penalty. I'm not going to continue engaging with you on this because you clearly are not willing to consider the possibility that you might be wrong and might have something to learn. Edited December 22, 2020 by SGT_Schultz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said: You seem to be under the impression that an ignored mandatory reload is a prerequisite for stacking to occur. It's not. You're hanging your entire argument on one example which, as others have already mentioned, is NOT all inclusive nor an exclusive definition. I'm not going to continue engaging with you on this because you clearly are not willing to consider the possibility that you might be wrong and might have something to learn. Lol. 1) the text you quoted above wasn't even to you, it was directed at someone else. 2) I already admitted I was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diver123 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 So back to what I said at the beginning? 2 for stacking and 3 for the non reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 5 hours ago, George Jones said: Damn! Made me go back to the OP. Two targets incorrectly engaged. Two procedurals. Plus the reload thing. Why is it 2 targets incorrectly engaged and not 4? T1 and T2 were shot twice each before the reload, and T4 and T5 were shot twice each after the reload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Blog post on Virginia Count scoring: https://nroi.org/q-of-month-results/virginia-count-penalties/#more-1450 According to this, competitors should not be penalized twice for the same action. In the blog example with Stage B, the competitor fired an extra shot after the point where he was supposed to reload, but wasn't assessed a penalty for it because he was already assessed an extra shot penalty. Sounds pretty similar to the example in this thread; if we're assessing stacking penalties, we shouldn't also be assessing penalties for the mandatory reload for those same shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Southpaw, The stacking violation was early in the stage. The reload violation occurred later in the stage Stacking is oenalized because the shooter saves target transition time. T1 and T2 were engaged with consecutive shots. The other targets were engaged with individual shots. The reload is not a shooting action so it's an independent violation. Not the same as the blog example. I'm taking the rest of the week off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Give USPSA a Christmas present, assign Virginia Count to the trash bin of history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted December 22, 2020 Author Share Posted December 22, 2020 21 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said: Give USPSA a Christmas present, assign Virginia Count to the trash bin of history. I've got a better idea. Screwing up the stage procedure earns a DNF for the stage. A shooter can't understand one round per target, reload, and one round per target? Congratulations, here's a 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkD Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, broadside72 said: This thread is confusing as are many of the Virginia ones. I think a clean step by step explanation would be better. Unfortunately I am not able to follow your posts and get a clear understanding of your reasoning as you are replying to various posts. I'd like to understand how the RMI thinks step by step. I just don't think your posts are coming across in a definitive manner that can be followed from first shot to last shot of the scenario being asked about. I am not an RMI here is the way I think it should be scored using the rulebook, if George Jones differs in his opinion I would like to know, because he is a RMI and has been doing this a long time, I think he helped write the rule book, so he has a better insight than most. T1 2 consecutive shots, that is 1 procedural for stacking T2 2 consecutive shots, that is 1 procedural for stacking2 Procedurals for stacking 9.4.5.3 Stacked shots will incur one procedural penalty per target incorrectly engaged in the string or stage. This penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots. (See Appendix A3 for the definition of stacked shots.) After T1-T5 have been engaged, a mandatory reload, the 1st reload was early so it doesn't count, every shot fired after a missed mandatory reload is a procedural per shot fired. Removing a magazine and re inserting it, is not a reload.5 Procedurals for a missed mandatory reload 10.2.4 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. Edited December 22, 2020 by DirkD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkD Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 11 minutes ago, HCH said: I've got a better idea. Screwing up the stage procedure earns a DNF for the stage. A shooter can't understand one round per target, reload, and one round per target? Congratulations, here's a 0. what rule supports a DNF in this case? The shooter shot the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Just when you thought you were out...... The reload was required after engaging T1-T5 (which can be engaged in any order). So after those five targets were engaged, the reload was required and only three more shots were taken before the stage was done. So 2 for stacking and 3 for missing a mandatory reload. Now can I go make some ammo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkD Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 1 minute ago, George Jones said: Just when you thought you were out...... The reload was required after engaging T1-T5 (which can be engaged in any order). So after those five targets were engaged, the reload was required and only three more shots were taken before the stage was done. So 2 for stacking and 3 for missing a mandatory reload. Now can I go make some ammo? make me some too, thank you for the explanation. Send me some primers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted December 22, 2020 Author Share Posted December 22, 2020 2 hours ago, DirkD said: what rule supports a DNF in this case? The shooter shot the stage. Did you even read what I quoted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkD Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 20 minutes ago, HCH said: Did you even read what I quoted? is this a USPSA Match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted December 22, 2020 Author Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, DirkD said: is this a USPSA Match? Did you read the post by Gary that I was replying to? Edited December 22, 2020 by HCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, George Jones said: Southpaw, The stacking violation was early in the stage. The reload violation occurred later in the stage Stacking is oenalized because the shooter saves target transition time. T1 and T2 were engaged with consecutive shots. The other targets were engaged with individual shots. The reload is not a shooting action so it's an independent violation. Not the same as the blog example. I'm taking the rest of the week off. The stacking violation occurred because shooter shot too many shots before reload at T1 and T2 and too few shots at T4 and T5 before reload. In the rulebook example shooter got two procedurals because T1 and T2 were both incorrectly engaged. Here T1, T2, T4, and T5 were incorrectly engaged, so I don't see why it's not 4 for stacking? Rulebook makes no mention of shooter having to save time on target transitions to get procedurals or that targets have to be engaged with consecutive shots, just that targets aren't shot as specified in the WSB. Blog post doesn't indicate reload is separate from shooting actions. In Stage B in blog post shooter did not get a penalty for firing an extra shot before the mandatory reload because he was already assessed an extra shot penalty. The next paragraph goes on to say if the shooter did the same thing (fires 1 extra shot before mandatory reload), but didn't also earn an extra shot procedural, then he'd get the mandatory reload procedural. So per the blog, firing an extra shot before a mandatory reload doesn't always incur a procedural if it shooter was already given one for a "shooting action" as you call it. Isn't this stuff fun! Edited December 22, 2020 by Southpaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 6 hours ago, HCH said: I've got a better idea. Screwing up the stage procedure earns a DNF for the stage. A shooter can't understand one round per target, reload, and one round per target? Congratulations, here's a 0. I like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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