CM 13-06 Penalty Question

[HCH]

3 hours ago, DirkD said:

Removing a magazine and re inserting it is not a reload.

 

 

And where did I say it was?

[driver8M3]

4 hours ago, DirkD said:

 

2 procedurals, Stacking 9.4.5.3

5 procedurals mandatory reload, 10.2.4 per shot fired until a proper reload was done.

 

 7 Procedurals on a 50 point stage.

0 on the stage it needs to be scored correctly

The stacking example in the rulebook glossary says nothing about procedurals for an ill-timed mandatory reload. The situation in the example is nearly a perfect match of what happened here and only stacking procedurals were assessed.

[DirkD]

Just now, driver8M3 said:

The stacking example in the rulebook glossary says nothing about procedurals for an ill-timed mandatory reload. The situation in the example is nearly a perfect match of what happened here and only stacking procedurals were assessed.

reload is after T1-T5 have been engaged, when were they engaged and when was the reload done?

The reload was not done as required so a mandatory reload procedural per shot fired applies.

[driver8M3]

4 minutes ago, DirkD said:

reload is after T1-T5 have been engaged, when were they engaged and when was the reload done?

The reload was not done as required so a mandatory reload procedural per shot fired applies.

You keep ignoring the part of the rulebook that was written for this exact situation. This exact scenario is in the rulebook glossary under stacked shots and it only assesses stacking procedurals. The reload in the glossary example was also done incorrectly, but still only stacking procedurals were assessed.

 

How would you score the example in the glossary?

Stacked shots - Shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing. Example: A VC scored stage requires two shots only at T1 and T2, a mandatory reload, and two shots only at T1 and T2. Firing 4 shots at T1, making the mandatory reload, and firing 4 shots at T2 is considered stacking and the competitor will be assessed two procedural penalties, one for incorrectly shooting at T1 and one for incorrectly shooting at T2.

[DirkD]

15 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

You keep ignoring the part of the rulebook that was written for this exact situation. This exact scenario is in the rulebook glossary under stacked shots and it only assesses stacking procedurals. The reload in the glossary example was also done incorrectly, but still only stacking procedurals were assessed.

 

How would you score the example in the glossary?

Stacked shots - Shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing. Example: A VC scored stage requires two shots only at T1 and T2, a mandatory reload, and two shots only at T1 and T2. Firing 4 shots at T1, making the mandatory reload, and firing 4 shots at T2 is considered stacking and the competitor will be assessed two procedural penalties, one for incorrectly shooting at T1 and one for incorrectly shooting at T2.

can't ignore this rule.
 

10.2.4  A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

Edited December 21, 2020 by DirkD

[driver8M3]

8 minutes ago, DirkD said:

can't ignore this rule.
10.2.4  A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

You can if the rulebook directs you to. And it does.

[DirkD]

1 minute ago, driver8M3 said:

You can if the rulebook directs you to. And it does.

the rule you cited said they made the mandatory reload, but it wasn't done after one shot was fired at T1 through T5, so it was not done per the WSB and 10.2.4 applies as well as the stacking procedurals.

seems obvious it is 2 for stacking 5 for the mandatory reload.

scoring your method is losing 20 points on a 50 point stage, not much left for a score, but better than a zero if you can make the ro only give you 2 procedurals instead of 7.

[driver8M3]

Just now, DirkD said:

the rule you cited said they made the mandatory reload, but it wasn't done after one shot was fired at T1 through T5, so it was not done per the WSB and 10.2.4 applies as well as the stacking procedurals.

seems obvious it is 2 for stacking 5 for the mandatory reload.

scoring your method is losing 20 points on a 50 point stage, not much left for a score, but better than a zero if you can make the ro only give you 2 procedurals instead of 7.

 

I would assign four procedurals...one each for stacking on T1, T2, T4, T5. 

 

I don't think you penalize the same action twice, so I would only assess stacking procedurals.

 

You didn't say how you would score the example in the glossary. I'm surprised...it should be easy because the answer is right there with the example.

[SGT_Schultz]

5 hours ago, DirkD said:

that would get rid of a lot of classifiers

 

Uh.....not if they were revised to comstock.

[DirkD]

4 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

 

I would assign four procedurals...one each for stacking on T1, T2, T4, T5. 

 

I don't think you penalize the same action twice, so I would only assess stacking procedurals.

 

You didn't say how you would score the example in the glossary. I'm surprised...it should be easy because the answer is right there with the example.

2 procedurals, Stacking 9.4.5.3

5 procedurals mandatory reload, 10.2.4 per shot fired until a proper reload was done.

[SGT_Schultz]

24 minutes ago, DirkD said:

can't ignore this rule.
 

10.2.4  A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

 

Agree with this.  Just because this scenario meets the textbook definition of stacking doesn't mean it excludes other justified penalties.

[DirkD]

4 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Uh.....not if they were revised to comstock.

that would be a way to fix it

[driver8M3]

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Agree with this.  Just because this scenario meets the textbook definition of stacking doesn't mean it excludes other justified penalties.

Do you think they forgot to mention the mandatory reload procedurals when they said what the penalties would be in the glossary?

 

I'll ask you the same question. How would you score the example that's in the glossary? (hint...the correct answer is in red)

Stacked shots - Shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing. Example: A VC scored stage requires two shots only at T1 and T2, a mandatory reload, and two shots only at T1 and T2. Firing 4 shots at T1, making the mandatory reload, and firing 4 shots at T2 is considered stacking and the competitor will be assessed two procedural penalties, one for incorrectly shooting at T1 and one for incorrectly shooting at T2.

 

Also, if you're going to penalize for stacking, you shouldn't also penalize the same actions under another rule.

 

[DirkD]

5 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

Do you think they forgot to mention the mandatory reload procedurals when they said what the penalties would be in the glossary?

 

I'll ask you the same question. How would you score the example that's in the glossary? (hint...the correct answer is in red)

Stacked shots - Shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing. Example: A VC scored stage requires two shots only at T1 and T2, a mandatory reload, and two shots only at T1 and T2. Firing 4 shots at T1, making the mandatory reload, and firing 4 shots at T2 is considered stacking and the competitor will be assessed two procedural penalties, one for incorrectly shooting at T1 and one for incorrectly shooting at T2.

 

Also, if you're going to penalize for stacking, you shouldn't also penalize the same actions under another rule.

 

They gave an example of stacking in the glossary, they didn't include every possible way to screw up the stage.

 

Stacking is one procedural,  failure to reload would be another one.

 

If the guy broke 180, no DQ since it wasn't in the stacking glossary? 

 

If he fired extra shots or had extra hits, does he get the procedural? 

Edited December 21, 2020 by DirkD

[driver8M3]

7 minutes ago, DirkD said:

They gave an example of stacking in the glossary, they didn't include every possible way to screw up the stage.

 

Stacking is one procedural,  failure to reload would be another one.

 

If the guy broke 180, no DQ since it wasn't in the stacking glossary? 

 

If he fired extra shots or had extra hits, does he get the procedural? 

Once you assign the two procedurals for stacking, you can't add additional penalties for the same action under a different rule. The violation committed was stacking (which included doing the mandatory reload after one target instead of two).

 

Are you also saying they forgot to mention the mandatory reload violations in the example?

Edited December 21, 2020 by driver8M3

[DirkD]

1 minute ago, driver8M3 said:

Once you assign the two procedurals for stacking, you can't also additional penalties for the same action under a different rule. The violation committed was stacking (which included doing the mandatory reload after one target instead of two).

 

Are you also saying they forgot to mention the mandatory reload violations in the example?

that is my point, there was more than 1 procedural committed, the stacking and the failure to reload, the other guy said just the stacking applies.

[driver8M3]

Just now, DirkD said:

that is my point, there was more than 1 procedural committed, the stacking and the failure to reload, the other guy said just the stacking applies.

Have you read the example of stacked shots yet? It very clearly includes a mandatory reload that was done early (just like in the situation described in this thread). In the example, they assessed two procedurals for stacking...and zero for mistiming the mandatory reload. There are many, many ways to write an example of stacking. The one the rules writers chose to use includes a mistimed mandatory reload. And because they are already penalizing under stacking (because it's the most appropriate penalty), they do not also penalize under 10.2.4.

[George Jones]

Stacking and failure to reload are two separate actions covered by two separate rules.  Each rule applies.

[DirkD]

1 minute ago, driver8M3 said:

Have you read the example of stacked shots yet? It very clearly includes a mandatory reload that was done early (just like in the situation described in this thread). In the example, they assessed two procedurals for stacking...and zero for mistiming the mandatory reload. There are many, many ways to write an example of stacking. The one the rules writers chose to use includes a mistimed mandatory reload. And because they are already penalizing under stacking (because it's the most appropriate penalty), they do not also penalize under 10.2.4.

yes but the mandatory reload wasn't done properly so they get the procedurals for that too.

all the rules apply, not just some of them.

[driver8M3]

1 minute ago, George Jones said:

Stacking and failure to reload are two separate actions covered by two separate rules.  Each rule applies.

 

The example of stacked shots in the glossary purposefully doesn't mention procedurals under 10.2.4? That's surprising to me. How many would you give in the example in this thread?

[George Jones]

A definition of one term in the glossary is unrelated to another action.  Trying to link the two is incorrect.  Each rule stands on its own.

Both rules apply.

The failure tom reload is one per shot fired from the point the reload was required until the end of the stage.  The reload was required after engaging T5.  The number of (incorrect) shoots fired at each target is irrelevant.  The penalty applies after T5 was engaged.

[driver8M3]

5 minutes ago, George Jones said:

A definition of one term in the glossary is unrelated to another action.  Trying to link the two is incorrect.  Each rule stands on its own.

Both rules apply.

The failure tom reload is one per shot fired from the point the reload was required until the end of the stage.  The reload was required after engaging T5.  The number of (incorrect) shoots fired at each target is irrelevant.  The penalty applies after T5 was engaged.

 

It would be nice if that example of stacking also included something like "(plus additional penalties under 10.2.4)." This seemed like clear stacking to me, so I wouldn't have assessed anything under 10.2.4 since it's essentially the same action and since the example implied it would only be two stacking procedurals.

 

Thanks for your straightening me out. I'd rather be wrong here than on the range.

[George Jones]

We would have to do that with every rule.

Two different actions.  Two different rules.  Two different violations.

That's why I peek in occasionally.  

[driver8M3]

7 minutes ago, George Jones said:

We would have to do that with every rule.

Two different actions.  Two different rules.  Two different violations.

That's why I peek in occasionally.  

How would you score the stacking example in the glossary?

[George Jones]

Damn!  Made me go back to the OP.

Two targets incorrectly engaged.  Two procedurals.

Plus the reload thing.