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18 hours ago, Sarge said:

Might have been one of the two I DQED? Two guys holstered 2011’s with the safety off on my stage in less than an hour. One guys squad was glad to see him go apparently.

It quite possibly was you. Would have been stage 5? Or 4. The one at the end of the row stage 1 is on right at the parking lot. ( I should really know the stage number considering I shoot at DSC a lot). Was a taller guy, argued about it for at least 5 minutes. And said "if we really cared about safety we would have just told him to flip the safety on." 

 

Our squad was already light a few shooters as well. 

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2 hours ago, nasty618 said:

 

 

Is it possible that in their game rules, "as long the hand didn't leave the gun - it's ok"?  This technically was the OP's intent - to find out if there ever was alternate wording of the same rule that might lead someone to think this would be ok. It was not to find out what the result of holstering a unsafe gun should be.

His hand left the gun. He had no idea he didnt have the safety on. Guy was a giant pain the whole day anyways. Never pasted, complained about everything, said he didn't care and wouldnt sign score sheet, ect.....

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3 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

It quite possibly was you. Would have been stage 5? Or 4. The one at the end of the row stage 1 is on right at the parking lot. ( I should really know the stage number considering I shoot at DSC a lot). Was a taller guy, argued about it for at least 5 minutes. And said "if we really cared about safety we would have just told him to flip the safety on." 

 

Our squad was already light a few shooters as well. 

sounds like the idiot needed to be sent home, we get on a squad sometimes with jerks like this, glad he didn't stay with you the whole match

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13 hours ago, nasty618 said:

 

 

Is it possible that in their game rules, "as long the hand didn't leave the gun - it's ok"?  This technically was the OP's intent - to find out if there ever was alternate wording of the same rule that might lead someone to think this would be ok. It was not to find out what the result of holstering a unsafe gun should be.

I've been at this for almost 28 years now ... I don't recall the rules ever having been such as to allow what the OP references.

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By the same logic... is it a DQ if after the make ready command, a 1911 shooter (with gun in holster) cocks hammer on an unloaded gun, turns on safety, and proceeds to dry fire draw (basically skipping lifting the gun all the way out, racking slide, safety on, putting back into the holster)?

Edited by mikeg1005
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3 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

By the same logic... is it a DQ if after the make ready command, a 1911 shooter (with gun in holster) cocks hammer on an unloaded gun, turns on safety, and proceeds to dry fire draw (basically skipping lifting the gun all the way out, racking slide, safety on, putting back into the holster)?

Dont see any issue with it. Gun is unloaded. 

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9 hours ago, DirkD said:

sounds like the idiot needed to be sent home, we get on a squad sometimes with jerks like this, glad he didn't stay with you the whole match

Oh belive me. Nobody on the squad missed him. Oddly havent ever seen him at a match again either. 

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Probably confused by the old, no-longer-valid rule that the COF ends once you let go of a holstered, cleared handgun after "If clear, hammer down, holster".

 

I don't remember exactly when that went away, but it's in the 2004 rulebook that I happen to have nearby.

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7 minutes ago, shred said:

Probably confused by the old, no-longer-valid rule that the COF ends once you let go of a holstered, cleared handgun after "If clear, hammer down, holster".

 

I don't remember exactly when that went away, but it's in the 2004 rulebook that I happen to have nearby.

2008:

 

HH. Rules 8.3.7.3 and 8.3.8 (Changes the end of the COF to the “Range is Clear”
command)

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2 minutes ago, DirkD said:

 many of the wrong answers will be ro's and cro's

And that is what's troubling... but not shocking. I can point you to a thread where I describe how not one, but three CROs make a fundamentally bad call on a well known classifier. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, nasty618 said:

And that is what's troubling... but not shocking. I can point you to a thread where I describe how not one, but three CROs make a fundamentally bad call on a well known classifier. 

 

 

wouldn't surprise me, most people don't know how to score a virginia count stage when people screw it up

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Perhaps this rule should be addressed in rule book. I couldn't find a clear definition of when the act of holstering is completed . reverse engineering a rule for penalties is b.s. and worse for a dq.

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5 minutes ago, barry said:

Perhaps this rule should be addressed in rule book. I couldn't find a clear definition of when the act of holstering is completed . reverse engineering a rule for penalties is b.s. and worse for a dq.

 

Agreed, a simple addition for a definition of "holstered" to the glossary would help clear this up. 

 

It's still baffling that so many people are getting it wrong though. This is a safety rule to prevent the gun from firing due to a snag while putting it into the holster, which seems obvious to me. Flipping the safety on once it's already holstered does nothing to limit this. 

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2 hours ago, barry said:

Perhaps this rule should be addressed in rule book. I couldn't find a clear definition of when the act of holstering is completed . reverse engineering a rule for penalties is b.s. and worse for a dq.

 

That won't solve the problem like you hope. The rule states "holstering" not "holstered" Holstering is an action, so once that process has started, when it ends is of no consequence to how the rule is written. 

 

And in many cases if you watch a shooter's muzzle then they are probably sweeping themselves, so they had better be holstering. So either way its a DQ

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2 hours ago, barry said:

reverse engineering a rule for penalties is b.s. and worse for a dq.

 

Why? 

 

If drawing is complete when the trigger guard is uncovered enough to be able to access the trigger, then in the absence of language indicating otherwise holstering (the opposite of drawing) is complete when the trigger guard is covered enough to prevent access to the trigger.

 

That's about as self evident as it gets.

 

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1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

That's about as self evident as it gets

To you, to me and 44% of those who voted it seems to be clear. But overwhelming majority seems to have no clue. 50+% said "no call", 5+% said Procedural.  What rule did those 5% apply?... we'll never know.

 

I agree that the rule should be adjusted to address this giant gap.

 

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

drawing is complete when the trigger guard is uncovered enough to be able to access the trigger

 

Not even access to the trigger - it's drawn when there's access to any portion of the inside of the trigger guard... Which can be tricky as there are set ups that allow some movement potentially exposing a millimeter or two of the internal trigger guard.

 

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On 12/18/2020 at 6:36 PM, George Jones said:

If it's not one condition, it must be the other.  Either the trigger is accessible or it is not.  Assuming a legal holster, the gun is either holstered or drawn.  There is no in-between.  That is what we teach.

You are looking for a specific rule, but "reverse engineering" is the best we have at the moment.

There is an in-between  Between those two is the process of "holstering."  And that is what the rule prohibits without the safety applied.

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15 hours ago, barry said:

Perhaps this rule should be addressed in rule book. I couldn't find a clear definition of when the act of holstering is completed . reverse engineering a rule for penalties is b.s. and worse for a dq.

Look up the definition of Draw, that tells you what a holstered gun is.

 

Look up the definition of loaded 

 

 

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Rule10.2.1 is often "reversed engineered" by placing targets a extreme angles around walls outside of shooting area and r.o. calling penalties for the back of shooters hand brushing wall . Rule specifically says "gains support" .  Same rule says penalties for" touching" ground outside of fault line ."touching" is reverse engineered to gaining support.

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4 hours ago, barry said:

Rule 8.5.2 when is it considered "placed" for the purpose of issuing a dq? 

Placed is when a shooter purposely places a gun down, and removes their hand from the gun.

You are going to say the same thing applies to a holstered gun.

 If you want to say a gun is not holstered because they still have their hand on the gun, then it must be unholstered?

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This is my point about reverse engineering  rules. Reverse engineered removing hand is also holstered.  I don't disagree its a dq but the fact that so many people are getting it wrong on down range when usually the posted question the vast majority get it right says something. I've seen ros cros and range masters enforce "their version "of rules at major matches.

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1 minute ago, barry said:

This is my point. Reverse engineered removing hand is also holstered.  I don't disagree its a dq but the fact that so many people are getting it wrong on down range when usually the posted question the vast majority get it right says something.

if the hand removed means it is holstered, then anytime the hand is on the gun means it is unholstered?

If that is the case, anytime someone puts their hand on the butt of their gun it would mean the gun has been unholstered and would be DQd for unsafe gun handling.

You are ignoring the definition of Draw which tells you when a gun is unholstered, it is either unholstered or holstered.

The reason most people got the question wrong is because they don't understand or know the rules.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to add a definition but unnecessary and the rule book is already 122 pages long

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