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I recently ran into a situation where several experienced competitors felt that holstering an unsafe gun was not a DQ as long as the hand remained on the gun and the safety was applied before taking the hand off it.  It seemed that by the same logic, flicking the safety off and on in the holster with a loaded gun would be ok.  They also felt that the rule was unclear about this.  

 

Question for the old timers: is there any history to this specific rule? Perhaps it was worded differently back in the day and that might have lead someone to think that what I described above is ok?

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Don’t know what it used to say but for the last 10-12 it’s been a DQ. The gun is holstered whether your hand is on it or not. I seem to recall an incident at a major where a shooter was DQED for flipping safety off and on while holstered.

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DQ.

And no, I've never known it to be interpreted as allowable as long as the hand remained on the gun. The prohibited act is holstering the gun with the safety off. Even if a hand is still on the gun, the prohibit action has already taken place.

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Yes, it is a DQ.

It all revolves around the gun being holstered.  If it is holstered and the safety if off (with a cocked hammer) it is an unsafe condition subject to DQ under Rule 10.5.11.

The hand position is irrelevant.

Additional insight can be found in Rule 5.2.7.4 and App A3 (Glossary) by reading the definitions of "Draw", "Gun case/bag",

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1 hour ago, George Jones said:

 

It all revolves around the gun being holstered.  If it is holstered and the safety if off (with a cocked hammer) it is an unsafe condition subject to DQ under Rule 10.5.11.

 

To avoid confusion, I think you meant loaded and holstered, please correct me if I am wrong. At make ready I've seen folks pull the hammer back and flip the safety on a holstered gun so they could get in a practice draw and snap, when I questioned the head cheese I was told this was allowed. I've also seen horseplay where a shooter pulled his buddies hammer back so his buddy would have to walk to the safety table and have been told this is not a dq. 

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You are correct.  It only applies to a loaded gun with the hammer cocked.

Not to say that doing what you describe with an unloaded gun might not bring some issues, such as an overzealous RO or a less experienced shooter losing track of the gun's condition.  Shooter beware!

I'm not a big fan of "buddies" messing with someone's gun.  Stuff happens.

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DQ if its loaded. The rule is for "holstering or placing". So if you are putting it in the holster you are holstering the gun. Once holstered or placed the rule still applies "All these conditions apply the entire time the firearm is in the holster or placed on an object as required by the Written Stage Briefing." so even flicking the safety on/off is not allowed.

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This incident happened at the match i run. Dont disagree that it is a dq. Shooter is an experienced shooter and didn't argue the dq. I Asked ro what rule call was based on. After much phone looking 10.5.11.1. Ok . Ro stated gun is considered holstered the instant  trigger is covered by holster.  Looked multiple times and don't see this in rulebook.  This brings up 10.5.11. Placing a loaded firearm when is gun placed ? When gun touches surface to be placed on  in he slighest way or when hand is removed? 

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Check in the glossary under 'Draw'; it's fair to assume that the opposite of that is the definition of holstered. There's no strict definition of 'placed'. I think the common-sense definition would be when you've removed your hand, but I could see it going the other way for the sake of consistency with 'draw'.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure I see the point of parsing the rule so finely. Safe your gun before you go to holster it or place it, not at the last possible second, and you're guaranteed to be fine.

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46 minutes ago, barry said:

Agreed. Have no idea why people don't engage safe as soon as they are done shooting but for all the range lawyers out there I can see an argument could be made.

 

You must not shoot a 1911?  A 1911 cannot be placed on safe if the hammer isn't cocked.

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The rules say a gun is drawn as soon as the trigger guard is uncovered sufficiently to allow activation of the trigger. An easy reverse-engineered answer for when a gun is holstered would be when the trigger guard is covered so as to not allow activation of the trigger.

 

As for placing it for a pick-up start, I can't cite a rule reference, but if the shooters hand hasn't left the gun I would hard pressed to issue a DQ. Maybe someone has an email stashed away from DNROI that says otherwise. 

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Fortunately, the rulebook has the same reverse-engineered definition in the glossary.  :D

 

Draw
The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

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If it's not one condition, it must be the other.  Either the trigger is accessible or it is not.  Assuming a legal holster, the gun is either holstered or drawn.  There is no in-between.  That is what we teach.

You are looking for a specific rule, but "reverse engineering" is the best we have at the moment.

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I don't disagree which is why the blog contains a lot of "what we teach".  Those details are usually way too lengthy to include in the rulebook but there have been quite a few additions to the glossary.  I'm sure there will be more.

I hope you'll agree that there have been quite a number of improvements to the NROI instruction information in the recent past.

Edited by George Jones
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On 12/18/2020 at 8:17 AM, nasty618 said:

I recently ran into a situation where several experienced competitors felt that holstering an unsafe gun was not a DQ as long as the hand remained on the gun and the safety was applied before taking the hand off it.  It seemed that by the same logic, flicking the safety off and on in the holster with a loaded gun would be ok.  They also felt that the rule was unclear about this.  

 

Question for the old timers: is there any history to this specific rule? Perhaps it was worded differently back in the day and that might have lead someone to think that what I described above is ok?

Loaded?

It doesn't matter if their hand is still on the gun or not, once the trigger is no longer accessible, when it is holstered and if the safety is off and loaded DQ.

Flicking the safety off on a loaded gun in a holster is a DQ

Unloaded, no DQ

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Watched a "expert" 3 gun shooter argue this exact scenario at the MI Sectional 2 or 3 years ago at Detroit Sportsmans Congress. The rest of the squad was way past ready for him to be gone anyways so we all just sat back and enjoyed the show. 

Edited by Bakerjd
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5 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

Watched a "expert" 3 gun shooter argue this exact scenario at the MI Sectional 2 or 3 years ago at Detroit Sportsmans Congress. The rest of the squad was way past ready for him to be gone anyways so we all just sat back and enjoyed the show. 

Might have been one of the two I DQED? Two guys holstered 2011’s with the safety off on my stage in less than an hour. One guys squad was glad to see him go apparently.

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21 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

3 gun shooter

 

16 hours ago, Sarge said:

Two guys holstered 2011’s with the safety off

 

Is it possible that in their game rules, "as long the hand didn't leave the gun - it's ok"?  This technically was the OP's intent - to find out if there ever was alternate wording of the same rule that might lead someone to think this would be ok. It was not to find out what the result of holstering a unsafe gun should be.

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