nasty618 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 I recently ran into a situation where several experienced competitors felt that holstering an unsafe gun was not a DQ as long as the hand remained on the gun and the safety was applied before taking the hand off it. It seemed that by the same logic, flicking the safety off and on in the holster with a loaded gun would be ok. They also felt that the rule was unclear about this. Question for the old timers: is there any history to this specific rule? Perhaps it was worded differently back in the day and that might have lead someone to think that what I described above is ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Don’t know what it used to say but for the last 10-12 it’s been a DQ. The gun is holstered whether your hand is on it or not. I seem to recall an incident at a major where a shooter was DQED for flipping safety off and on while holstered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 DQ. And no, I've never known it to be interpreted as allowable as long as the hand remained on the gun. The prohibited act is holstering the gun with the safety off. Even if a hand is still on the gun, the prohibit action has already taken place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Yes, it is a DQ. It all revolves around the gun being holstered. If it is holstered and the safety if off (with a cocked hammer) it is an unsafe condition subject to DQ under Rule 10.5.11. The hand position is irrelevant. Additional insight can be found in Rule 5.2.7.4 and App A3 (Glossary) by reading the definitions of "Draw", "Gun case/bag", Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 1 hour ago, George Jones said: It all revolves around the gun being holstered. If it is holstered and the safety if off (with a cocked hammer) it is an unsafe condition subject to DQ under Rule 10.5.11. To avoid confusion, I think you meant loaded and holstered, please correct me if I am wrong. At make ready I've seen folks pull the hammer back and flip the safety on a holstered gun so they could get in a practice draw and snap, when I questioned the head cheese I was told this was allowed. I've also seen horseplay where a shooter pulled his buddies hammer back so his buddy would have to walk to the safety table and have been told this is not a dq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 You are correct. It only applies to a loaded gun with the hammer cocked. Not to say that doing what you describe with an unloaded gun might not bring some issues, such as an overzealous RO or a less experienced shooter losing track of the gun's condition. Shooter beware! I'm not a big fan of "buddies" messing with someone's gun. Stuff happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 DQ if its loaded. The rule is for "holstering or placing". So if you are putting it in the holster you are holstering the gun. Once holstered or placed the rule still applies "All these conditions apply the entire time the firearm is in the holster or placed on an object as required by the Written Stage Briefing." so even flicking the safety on/off is not allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 This incident happened at the match i run. Dont disagree that it is a dq. Shooter is an experienced shooter and didn't argue the dq. I Asked ro what rule call was based on. After much phone looking 10.5.11.1. Ok . Ro stated gun is considered holstered the instant trigger is covered by holster. Looked multiple times and don't see this in rulebook. This brings up 10.5.11. Placing a loaded firearm when is gun placed ? When gun touches surface to be placed on in he slighest way or when hand is removed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishbreath Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Check in the glossary under 'Draw'; it's fair to assume that the opposite of that is the definition of holstered. There's no strict definition of 'placed'. I think the common-sense definition would be when you've removed your hand, but I could see it going the other way for the sake of consistency with 'draw'. Anyway, I'm not sure I see the point of parsing the rule so finely. Safe your gun before you go to holster it or place it, not at the last possible second, and you're guaranteed to be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Agreed. Have no idea why people don't engage safe as soon as they are done shooting but for all the range lawyers out there I can see an argument could be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 46 minutes ago, barry said: Agreed. Have no idea why people don't engage safe as soon as they are done shooting but for all the range lawyers out there I can see an argument could be made. You must not shoot a 1911? A 1911 cannot be placed on safe if the hammer isn't cocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 I shoot nothing but 1911. Were talking about holstering a loaded gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 The rules say a gun is drawn as soon as the trigger guard is uncovered sufficiently to allow activation of the trigger. An easy reverse-engineered answer for when a gun is holstered would be when the trigger guard is covered so as to not allow activation of the trigger. As for placing it for a pick-up start, I can't cite a rule reference, but if the shooters hand hasn't left the gun I would hard pressed to issue a DQ. Maybe someone has an email stashed away from DNROI that says otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 Not looking to argue but wasn't aware reverse engineering rules was a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 Fortunately, the rulebook has the same reverse-engineered definition in the glossary. Draw The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 Thats the rule your reverse engineering. Dont see a rule defining at what point a gun is holstered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 When it's not drawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 Good evening George. Was hoping you would weigh in. My question was the ro quoted a rule that gun was considered holstered the moment the trigger was covered by top of holster . I couldn't find that rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 If it's not one condition, it must be the other. Either the trigger is accessible or it is not. Assuming a legal holster, the gun is either holstered or drawn. There is no in-between. That is what we teach. You are looking for a specific rule, but "reverse engineering" is the best we have at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 Thanks for the clarification George. Might be a good subject for Troy's monthly rules blog." Hard to look up what we teach" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 (edited) I don't disagree which is why the blog contains a lot of "what we teach". Those details are usually way too lengthy to include in the rulebook but there have been quite a few additions to the glossary. I'm sure there will be more. I hope you'll agree that there have been quite a number of improvements to the NROI instruction information in the recent past. Edited December 19, 2020 by George Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkD Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 On 12/18/2020 at 8:17 AM, nasty618 said: I recently ran into a situation where several experienced competitors felt that holstering an unsafe gun was not a DQ as long as the hand remained on the gun and the safety was applied before taking the hand off it. It seemed that by the same logic, flicking the safety off and on in the holster with a loaded gun would be ok. They also felt that the rule was unclear about this. Question for the old timers: is there any history to this specific rule? Perhaps it was worded differently back in the day and that might have lead someone to think that what I described above is ok? Loaded? It doesn't matter if their hand is still on the gun or not, once the trigger is no longer accessible, when it is holstered and if the safety is off and loaded DQ. Flicking the safety off on a loaded gun in a holster is a DQ Unloaded, no DQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakerjd Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 (edited) Watched a "expert" 3 gun shooter argue this exact scenario at the MI Sectional 2 or 3 years ago at Detroit Sportsmans Congress. The rest of the squad was way past ready for him to be gone anyways so we all just sat back and enjoyed the show. Edited December 22, 2020 by Bakerjd Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 5 hours ago, Bakerjd said: Watched a "expert" 3 gun shooter argue this exact scenario at the MI Sectional 2 or 3 years ago at Detroit Sportsmans Congress. The rest of the squad was way past ready for him to be gone anyways so we all just sat back and enjoyed the show. Might have been one of the two I DQED? Two guys holstered 2011’s with the safety off on my stage in less than an hour. One guys squad was glad to see him go apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasty618 Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 21 hours ago, Bakerjd said: 3 gun shooter 16 hours ago, Sarge said: Two guys holstered 2011’s with the safety off Is it possible that in their game rules, "as long the hand didn't leave the gun - it's ok"? This technically was the OP's intent - to find out if there ever was alternate wording of the same rule that might lead someone to think this would be ok. It was not to find out what the result of holstering a unsafe gun should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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