Activator question

[Nick_shoots_fast]

first off, this isn’t a question for any RO/CRO test. 
 

im designing a stage where I want the activator to be activated by a prop and can’t find in the book if this is ok. I didn’t know if this would fit into “free style” 

 

I was wanting to put in the WSB that you MUSTA ACTIVATE the stomp box with a suit case. If you activate using anything else, it will result in 1 procedural for each shot fired.  

[bagdad45]

I am never a fan of the term "must" because people always find a way to do it but not the way you intend. As you note it is not really freestyle either. I did a Christmas theme match where you had Santa's bag in your hand, it had to be dropped down a chimney to activate the stomp pad. It wasn't so big they couldn't throw the bag ,but the opening was small enough that missing really cost you. I would say if you made a prop like the carry on bag check in the airports you could force most shooters to use the bag to activate. Make it such that it really just fit down into it from straight overhead, was boxed in enough where putting your foot there was not a good choice ands throwing it was not likely to be successful. Most shooters will look at the risk/reward and do exactly what you desire them to do.

 

What are you doing until you drop the bag, are there targets to engage?

[Nolan]

You could word the Written Stage Briefing

 

"Suitcase MUST be in/on Stomp Pad/Box before last shot is fired"

 

Then it doesn't matter how they activate the Stomp Pad/Box, the fastest way will be to use the Suitcase.

 

Nolan

[Southpaw]

Would help if you posted the WSB, but yes, sounds like this would be legal.  The stomp box activates 1 appearing target?  If so, note that not doing the thing would be max 2 procedurals, not say 32 if it's a 32 round stage.

 

So yes you CAN write a WSB like this, but SHOULD you?  Generally speaking, the shorter the WSB, the better the stage.  Overly complicated WSBs trying to get shooters to do some complicated thing rarely turn out well.  And it's likely someone will figure out a way to game the stage to avoid doing the thing you want them to do.  When writing the WSB, think about what is gained by having the shooters do some extra non-shooting thing.  Are people actually going to enjoy it, or think it's a PIA and try to find a way to avoid doing the thing?  For example, if you're trying to get people to carry something to encourage some one handed shooting, don't ask them to carry it for the entire stage, or they'll find a way to not carry it at all.

 

3 hours ago, Nolan said:

You could word the Written Stage Briefing

 

"Suitcase MUST be in/on Stomp Pad/Box before last shot is fired"

 

Then it doesn't matter how they activate the Stomp Pad/Box, the fastest way will be to use the Suitcase.

 

Nolan

 

Depends on stage, but a lot of stages like that it's better to just take 1 procedural rather than deal with the prop.

[BillChunn]

USPSA is about shooting.  IMHO adding "stupid human tricks" does not make a stage better.  Even if you word the WSB down to the gnat's a$$, the gamers are going to figure out a way to defeat the stage designer's intentions.  

 

Things done in the past to get around stupid human tricks:

- Magazine thrown at a hinged port to open it in advance.  Was it an advantage?  The competitor thought so.  No, he didn't win the stage but the one feed lip on his Open gun magazine had a nice new dent.

- Suitcase thrown onto stomp pad which activated a swinger.  By the time the competitor got to that target, it was no longer moving.

- Carry something from the start position to the last shooting position which was about 50' away.  Almost everyone in the match took the one procedural. 

- Stage designer wanted strong-hand only in a 32 round field course.  Mandated the object be "carried" in the WSB.  Most stuck it behind a magazine on their belt leaving both hands on the gun.

- After the beep, find your bullets in a bowl of marbles and load them into your empty magazine to start the stage.  Competitors just turned the bowl over on the table and the marbles rolled away providing easier access to the ammunition.

 

Make stages a challenge to shoot, not play around with other stuff.  But hey, that's just my opinion.  

 

BC

 

[EEH]

Well said Bill.

[rowdyb]

Quote

The only

Quote

 

 

The only time I have seen this work is when a box the size of the suitcase is built and placed over the stomp pad such that the ONLY way to activate it is to drop the suitcase into the box and onto the stomp pad. And you better make it such a low HF stage that taking the penalty isn't better than doing the action.

[motosapiens]

It is legal and not terribly uncommon. It can be a nice way to give shooters some choices, such as whether to engage a few targets 1-handed, or activate with the prop and then go back for the targets.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that some shooters are going to be rough with your prop, and fling it from several feet away, so the suitcase might suffer. I've seen a heavy sturdy fabric purse with a 5-10 lbs of gravel in it used, and it seemed to hold up well and not damage the stompbox.

 

Another possibility is to simply provide a spot to place the suitcase and state that the suitcase must be placed there before the stomp box is activated. They might still destroy your suitcase, but not the stompbox.

 

When doing stages like this, it is smart to do a couple things:

1. find a good CRO/RM to run it past to help look for holes in the wording.

2. ask some experienced shooters if it sounds like fun or sounds stupid.

3. if some people like the idea, don't be afraid to totally ignore the whiny naysayers that want nothing except stand and shoot positions 5 feet apart from each other. Stupid human tricks are part what makes uspsa fun, and there is definitely a practical purpose to managing the carrying of an object along with shooting. Just try to make it as simple and practical as possible. I try to think of the object as an ammo can, or vital medical supplies, or the day's cash receipts from your small business.

Edited December 10, 2020 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

On 12/8/2020 at 10:05 PM, Southpaw said:

Depends on stage, but a lot of stages like that it's better to just take 1 procedural rather than deal with the prop.

 

proceduraly per shot fired on the activated target if the target is activated any other way. That way it's 2 procedurals.

 

but yeah, you definitely have to think a bit to make it not worthwhile to just take the procedurals, but without making it stupid.

[Southpaw]

28 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

proceduraly per shot fired on the activated target if the target is activated any other way. That way it's 2 procedurals.

 

In OP's scenario yes 2, as I said in my post. The part of my post you quoted was in reference to a different scenario that said "before the last shot", so 1 procedural possible for that

[rishii]

We’ve done stages like that

1. It will be gamed in ways you’d never image 

2. don’t get heartburn when it gets gamed, it’s part of the game

3. Whenever you make a stage that involves stupid human tricks, never underestimate stupid

[mikeg1005]

On 12/8/2020 at 6:07 PM, Atlasguy321 said:

first off, this isn’t a question for any RO/CRO test. 
 

im designing a stage where I want the activator to be activated by a prop and can’t find in the book if this is ok. I didn’t know if this would fit into “free style” 

 

I was wanting to put in the WSB that you MUSTA ACTIVATE the stomp box with a suit case. If you activate using anything else, it will result in 1 procedural for each shot fired.  

 

Is your goal to force the shooter to decide if they want to carry and shoot one handed or run somewhere, activate it and then shoot the stage?  

 

If so.... then state in the WSB that the suitcase must be carried or placed on the stomp pad, any shots fired with the suitcase not on the pad/carried will result in a per shot penalty.  Suitcase may be put down to reload/clear jams/etc.  Then... make the stomp pad the size for only the suitcase (not someone's foot, a mag, etc.)  If you do this people by default activate it via the suitcase.  

 

Area 3 does this all the time.  Makes you decide if you want to run down range and activate then shoot back or carry it and shoot it upwards.  FYI... its almost always better to run down and shoot back.  

 

HOWEVER... if you goal is to just have them activate it with a suitcase and the suitcase doesn't do anything else (create a shooting challenge or stage plan challenge) then skip the suitcase it adds nothing to the stage. 

 

 

[mikeg1005]

As mentioned... someone will game it and figure out a way to not activate it with the suitcase, I wouldn't worry about it... the stage plan will likely be dumb and slow and that shooter will not do well on the stage... but this is America, you can do what you want.  

[mikeg1005]

On 12/9/2020 at 8:16 AM, BillChunn said:

USPSA is about shooting.  IMHO adding "stupid human tricks" does not make a stage better.  Even if you word the WSB down to the gnat's a$$, the gamers are going to figure out a way to defeat the stage designer's intentions.  

 

Things done in the past to get around stupid human tricks:

- Magazine thrown at a hinged port to open it in advance.  Was it an advantage?  The competitor thought so.  No, he didn't win the stage but the one feed lip on his Open gun magazine had a nice new dent.

- Suitcase thrown onto stomp pad which activated a swinger.  By the time the competitor got to that target, it was no longer moving.

- Carry something from the start position to the last shooting position which was about 50' away.  Almost everyone in the match took the one procedural. 

- Stage designer wanted strong-hand only in a 32 round field course.  Mandated the object be "carried" in the WSB.  Most stuck it behind a magazine on their belt leaving both hands on the gun.

- After the beep, find your bullets in a bowl of marbles and load them into your empty magazine to start the stage.  Competitors just turned the bowl over on the table and the marbles rolled away providing easier access to the ammunition.

 

Make stages a challenge to shoot, not play around with other stuff.  But hey, that's just my opinion.  

 

BC

 

 

... is this stuff Roy Neal has tired before at his matches 

[Brooke]

On 12/9/2020 at 9:16 AM, BillChunn said:

USPSA is about shooting.  IMHO adding "stupid human tricks" does not make a stage better.  Even if you word the WSB down to the gnat's a$$, the gamers are going to figure out a way to defeat the stage designer's intentions.  

 

Things done in the past to get around stupid human tricks:

- Magazine thrown at a hinged port to open it in advance.  Was it an advantage?  The competitor thought so.  No, he didn't win the stage but the one feed lip on his Open gun magazine had a nice new dent.

- Suitcase thrown onto stomp pad which activated a swinger.  By the time the competitor got to that target, it was no longer moving.

- Carry something from the start position to the last shooting position which was about 50' away.  Almost everyone in the match took the one procedural. 

- Stage designer wanted strong-hand only in a 32 round field course.  Mandated the object be "carried" in the WSB.  Most stuck it behind a magazine on their belt leaving both hands on the gun.

- After the beep, find your bullets in a bowl of marbles and load them into your empty magazine to start the stage.  Competitors just turned the bowl over on the table and the marbles rolled away providing easier access to the ammunition.

 

Make stages a challenge to shoot, not play around with other stuff.  But hey, that's just my opinion.  

 

BC

 

Exactly!!! If you want some goofy trick design an IDPA stage. This is precisely my objection to IDPA 

[MikeBurgess]

On 12/10/2020 at 10:17 AM, rishii said:

We’ve done stages like that

1. It will be gamed in ways you’d never image 

2. don’t get heartburn when it gets gamed, it’s part of the game

3. Whenever you make a stage that involves stupid human tricks, never underestimate stupid

This is the best stage design summery I have ever seen.

 

Number 2 is the big one, once you put a stage out into the world its going to get gamed don't take it personal 

[Brooke]

On 12/9/2020 at 9:16 AM, BillChunn said:

USPSA is about shooting.  IMHO adding "stupid human tricks" does not make a stage better.  Even if you word the WSB down to the gnat's a$$, the gamers are going to figure out a way to defeat the stage designer's intentions.  

 

Things done in the past to get around stupid human tricks:

- Magazine thrown at a hinged port to open it in advance.  Was it an advantage?  The competitor thought so.  No, he didn't win the stage but the one feed lip on his Open gun magazine had a nice new dent.

- Suitcase thrown onto stomp pad which activated a swinger.  By the time the competitor got to that target, it was no longer moving.

- Carry something from the start position to the last shooting position which was about 50' away.  Almost everyone in the match took the one procedural. 

- Stage designer wanted strong-hand only in a 32 round field course.  Mandated the object be "carried" in the WSB.  Most stuck it behind a magazine on their belt leaving both hands on the gun.

- After the beep, find your bullets in a bowl of marbles and load them into your empty magazine to start the stage.  Competitors just turned the bowl over on the table and the marbles rolled away providing easier access to the ammunition.

 

Make stages a challenge to shoot, not play around with other stuff.  But hey, that's just my opinion.  

 

BC

 

 

Thanks. It's stuff like this idea that make IDPA a joke. USPSA is about shooting not about silly things to do.

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, Brooke said:

 

Thanks. It's stuff like this idea that make IDPA a joke. USPSA is about shooting not about silly things to do.

BUT, there is nothing worse than shooting a 12 stage major and every WSB is exactly the same.”Toes on Mark’s hands relaxed at sides”, gets old real quick. I love adding variety without getting TOO crazy just to keep things fresh. 

[mikeg1005]

7 hours ago, Brooke said:

 

USPSA is about shooting not about silly things to do.

 

Because you can't shooting one handed or think beyond 'go here, shoot what I see'  it doesn't make prop manipulation, memory stages, or WSB  that require you to do 'something' while shooting... silly.  Things that introduce challenges to shooting are in fact 'shooting'.  The goal of USPSA is to get the highest hit factor on a stage.. that stage can be whatever the course designer wants. 

 

There are people who think moving more than 10yds, having to go prone, or pick up a mag off a table is silly too. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by mikeg1005

[GrumpyOne]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

BUT, there is nothing worse than shooting a 12 stage major and every WSB is exactly the same.”Toes on Mark’s hands relaxed at sides”, gets old real quick. I love adding variety without getting TOO crazy just to keep things fresh. 

Do this next time...Toes on marks, hands relaxed at sides....except make the marks 4-5 foot apart. That is variety, right?

[Joe4d]

Question,, what if shooter only has 1 toe ?

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

Question,, what if shooter only has 1 toe ?

Special penalty rule applies. Designate a way for them to start and hit them with a percentage.

[BillChunn]

14 hours ago, Sarge said:

Special penalty rule applies. Designate a way for them to start and hit them with a percentage.

 

If it's 1 toe out of 10 then is the percentage 10% ?  Asking for a friend......

 

BC

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, BillChunn said:

 

If it's 1 toe out of 10 then is the percentage 10% ?  Asking for a friend......

 

BC

[MicahSwan]

On 12/8/2020 at 5:27 PM, Nolan said:

You could word the Written Stage Briefing

 

"Suitcase MUST be in/on Stomp Pad/Box before last shot is fired"

 

Then it doesn't matter how they activate the Stomp Pad/Box, the fastest way will be to use the Suitcase.

 

Nolan

I like that you leave it up to them still if they want to take the 1 procedural or not depending on how low the HF is. 
For a guy feeling confident in his high HF it might be done one way, and maybe another for someone thinking it's a lower HF for them.