Extractor and Case Gap

[Lastcat]

New Brazo 5" Slide and new EGW Standard Extractor. 2011 Open Gun. Just watched this from wolf 83, many great videos. 

 

 

So here is mine, case is down far as possible. See a problem? Tension is great, but dam, getting the Extractor back in the slide takes some force, bigly table slam. FPS fits great, no slop. Extractor fits FPS great as well. There's a .025" gap between the Breach  Face and the Case. I also have a Heavy Duty EGW Extractor I tried and it looks the same. Looks like trouble. Now what?

 

 

 

[ltdmstr]

Not sure who wolf 83 is, but I can tell you that's not the correct way to fit an extractor.  The flat on the extractor should be contacting the case rim and the hook shouldn't be touching anything.  If you do it the correct way, the case will be on the breach face and the extractor can be tensioned by feel.

Edited December 4, 2020 by ltdmstr

[Lastcat]

6 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

I didn't watch his 20+ minute video, but I can tell you from the photo that's not the correct way to fit an extractor.  The flat on the extractor should be contacting the case rim and the hook shouldn't be touching anything.  Once you do that, the case should be on the breach face and the extractor can be tensioned by feel.

 

For 9, 40 and 38S there needs to be a gap between the case and extractor, unless it's a 45, then there is no gap. I have a 9mm Open Gun. The gap from the case to the breach is my concern. Normal? Otherwise it looks like ignition is going to slam the case into the extractor, yes?

[ltdmstr]

4 minutes ago, Lastcat said:

 

For 9, 40 and 38S there needs to be a gap between the case and extractor, unless it's a 45, then there is no gap. I have a 9mm Open Gun. The gap from the case to the breach is my concern. Normal? Otherwise it looks like ignition is going to slam the case into the extractor, yes?

 

Normal?  No.  Going to slam the case into the extractor hook?  Yes.  And probably going to break it off eventually.  Do as you wish, but your statement that there needs to be a gap between the case rim and the extractor body simply isn't correct.  That's not how the part was designed to work and it's not the correct way to do it.  Doesn't matter what caliber it is.  What's the point of beveling the extractor notch for smooth feeding then having the hook dig into the soft brass case?  That's certainly not going to help.  I set up extractors the same way regardless of caliber, with the extractor notch contacting the case rim and no contact on the hook.  I've been doing it that way for 20+ years, and have 9s and 40s that feed so smooth you don't even feel the round going into the chamber.  And they're all 100% reliable.  I'm not a big name gunsmith, or a internet celebrity, so that probably doesn't count for much.  But I did learn the trade from John Nowlin, who was among the best, and I'm pretty sure he knew what he was doing.

[ltdmstr]

Sorry if that was a bit harsh, but I just don't agree with setting up extractors this way.  Regarding your photo above, by the time you get the case up against the breach face, the extractor is going to be on the bevel rather than the flat and I don't see how you can correct that.  Maybe someone who sets them up this way can offer a solution.

[zzt]

ltdmstr, many 'competent' gunsmiths set up 9mm specifically so the claw touches the case and the rim is not touching the tensioning wall.  I set several up that way.  Does it work.  Yes, sometimes.  Setting it up the way you describe with the rim touching the tensioning wall and the claw NOT touching the brass is the only way to assure 100% reliability with all different brands of brass.  Even Aftecs have to be set up that way, although that is pretty much automatic.

 

I have 9mm guns set up with EGW Standard and HD extractors and one with an Aftec (old style).  All run 100%.

Edited December 4, 2020 by zzt

[Bakerjd]

So my question is this. Why is the case not sitting flat on the breach face?

[shred]

1 hour ago, Bakerjd said:

So my question is this. Why is the case not sitting flat on the breach face?

Its being pushed sideways by the extractor into the fulcrum of the other side of the breechface and upwards by the angle of the extraction groove?

 

[ltdmstr]

4 hours ago, zzt said:

ltdmstr, many 'competent' gunsmiths set up 9mm specifically so the claw touches the case and the rim is not touching the tensioning wall.  I set several up that way.  Does it work.  Yes, sometimes.  Setting it up the way you describe with the rim touching the tensioning wall and the claw NOT touching the brass is the only way to assure 100% reliability with all different brands of brass.  Even Aftecs have to be set up that way, although that is pretty much automatic.

 

I have 9mm guns set up with EGW Standard and HD extractors and one with an Aftec (old style).  All run 100%.

 

Yeah, I actually see this a lot, so apparently people are able to make it work.  I just find it easier to do it the other way, and my experience is that guns feed a lot smoother when you don't have a hard steel extractor hook digging into a soft brass shell casing.  Maybe I'm behind the times, but I'm gonna stick with what I know.  Re the OP, from the photo he posted, I don't see how he's going to make that work.

 

22 minutes ago, shred said:

Its being pushed sideways by the extractor into the fulcrum of the other side of the breechface and upwards by the angle of the extraction groove?

 

 

That's what it looks like to me.  If you try to force the case back onto the breach face, the nose of the extractor hook is going to ride up the bevel and force it off.  If you trim the extractor hook and push the case back, then the hook is going to contact the bevel, not the flat, which isn't going to work.

[Bakerjd]

6 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Yeah, I actually see this a lot, so apparently people are able to make it work.  I just find it easier to do it the other way, and my experience is that guns feed a lot smoother when you don't have a hard steel extractor hook digging into a soft brass shell casing.  Maybe I'm behind the times, but I'm gonna stick with what I know.  Re the OP, from the photo he posted, I don't see how he's going to make that work.

 

 

That's what it looks like to me.  If you try to force the case back onto the breach face, the nose of the extractor hook is going to ride up the bevel and force it off.  If you trim the extractor hook and push the case back, then the hook is going to contact the bevel, not the flat, which isn't going to work.

So the extractor is to long then? The hook is to far forward of the breach face and the hook also protrudes to much. Am I thinking about this correctly? I only ask because I am also sort of building my own poor mans open gun and am learning as I go. Thanks for the info!

 

Josh

[ltdmstr]

8 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

So the extractor is to long then? The hook is to far forward of the breach face and the hook also protrudes to much. Am I thinking about this correctly? I only ask because I am also sort of building my own poor mans open gun and am learning as I go. Thanks for the info!

 

Josh

 

Maybe.  Could be a number of things, or several things combined.  Extractor length, location of fp stop cut in extractor, breach face depth, etc.  I'd start by measuring everything and comparing to specs.  If you're going to work on guns, it's always a good idea to do a thorough visual inspection and check critical dimensions before you start fitting parts.  It'll prevent a lot of headaches and extra work in the long run.  Good luck with your project.

[Bakerjd]

1 hour ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Maybe.  Could be a number of things, or several things combined.  Extractor length, location of fp stop cut in extractor, breach face depth, etc.  I'd start by measuring everything and comparing to specs.  If you're going to work on guns, it's always a good idea to do a thorough visual inspection and check critical dimensions before you start fitting parts.  It'll prevent a lot of headaches and extra work in the long run.  Good luck with your project.

I measure everything multiple times. And have used sanding stones and fine files to do must of the fitting so far. I doubt many people do it this way but being as it's my first time I'm going very slow. But enjoying it. Thanks for the info!

[zzt]

Manufacturers tell me the hardest thing to get right on a 1911 slide is the extractor tunnel.

[Bakerjd]

19 minutes ago, zzt said:

Manufacturers tell me the hardest thing to get right on a 1911 slide is the extractor tunnel.

I've heard this too but dont understand why. It is just a straight hole in the slide. Drill undersized hole, ream to correct size. This gets you a perfectly symmetrical hole. The measurements for hole location should be easy to find. I've heard the firing pin hole is also an issue and have seen many slides have misaligned firing pin holes.

[TONY BARONE]

Breech face to extractor hook .0625 for super .075 for .45 is a good start for extractor tuning. The 1911.com forum is a good place to find info on extractor fitting.

[zzt]

19 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

I've heard this too but dont understand why. It is just a straight hole in the slide. Drill undersized hole, ream to correct size. This gets you a perfectly symmetrical hole. The measurements for hole location should be easy to find. I've heard the firing pin hole is also an issue and have seen many slides have misaligned firing pin holes.

 

The drill tends to walk.  One manufacturer told me the only drills that work for him are a particular brand of Japanese drills.  The firing pin hole is a snap by comparison.

Edited December 6, 2020 by zzt

[zzt]

13 hours ago, TONY BARONE said:

Breech face to extractor hook .0625 for super .075 for .45 is a good start for extractor tuning. The 1911.com forum is a good place to find info on extractor fitting.

 

+1 on the 1911 forums.  EGW recommends .065" for 9mm.

[assaulter]

I've fit 9mm extractors with rim contact and didn't like it because you have to remove so much off the hook.  I do them all with the hook in the groove now.  You do need to bevel the hook to match the bevel on the case.

 

[TONY BARONE]

5 minutes ago, assaulter said:

I've fit 9mm extractors with rim contact and didn't like it because you have to remove so much off the hook.  I do them all with the hook in the groove now.  You do need to bevel the hook to match the bevel on the case.

 

Good point.

[zzt]

1 hour ago, assaulter said:

I've fit 9mm extractors with rim contact and didn't like it because you have to remove so much off the hook.  I do them all with the hook in the groove now.  You do need to bevel the hook to match the bevel on the case.

 

 

I don't see the problem.  Yes you have to remove some material from the front of the claw, but you still have full engagement.  If you set it up so the claw touched the recess and there is space between the tensioning wall and the rim, you still have the same amount of engagement.  All of the hook is pulling on the full width of the rim when extracting in either case.

[ltdmstr]

1 hour ago, assaulter said:

I've fit 9mm extractors with rim contact and didn't like it because you have to remove so much off the hook.  I do them all with the hook in the groove now.  You do need to bevel the hook to match the bevel on the case.

 

 

Sorry, but I don't think .010 or .020 off the nose of the hook for clearance makes a difference.  Plus, when you set it up as OP has done, you have max force on the thinnest and weakest portion of the hook.  Also, since the hook is left longer (considerably so in this case) the force/leverage on the hook during extraction is much greater.  Both factors increase the chance of the tip of the hook shearing off, which is a common problem when it's set up that way (or at least far more common than when it's set up the other way).

[assaulter]

Those are all good points.  I also remember having to remove a LOT of material off the tensioning pad for proper tension.  At the end of the day it seemed like a lot of extra work for no gain.   Maybe I'll try another one the "right" way and see if I can tell a difference.  I wonder why EGW doesn't make the 9mm extractor set up that way if that's the way it's "supposed" to be done?

[ltdmstr]

I guess reasonable people can disagree.  From what I've seen, plenty of big name gunsmiths do it that way.  But none have provided a convincing argument as to why it's better.  And every time I look at it, I just see lots of negatives and no positives.  If you understand how the gun was designed, how it works, and what you're looking at, you can decide for yourself.  And really, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks as long as you can make it work to your satisfaction.

[zzt]

10 hours ago, assaulter said:

I wonder why EGW doesn't make the 9mm extractor set up that way if that's the way it's "supposed" to be done?

 

They make the unconventional HD extractor and the Standard extractor.  If you had to remove material from the tensioning wall of an EGW extractor to fit, your extractor tunnel was bored incorrectly.  It is more common than you think.

[yigal]

The rim area of 9 is smaller than 45 and exerts more effort on it, causing crushing so it should be covered as much as possible.

that's my opinion and i tune all 9mm guns this way. 0 extracting problems with all 1911 that i tuned.