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Par Time Goals


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I’m aware that lots of folks want to get near a 1 second draw. That being said, what is a realistic par time goal for a new USPSA shooter for the following?

 

8 yards

Gun is hovering near right hip (right handed shooter) with support hand in chop position under trigger guard. Not sure what you would call this starting position. 
At beep, bring gun up and fire one shot into A zone. 

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Id call it a starting position that will never be used at any competition I have ever shot so why bother.

 

If you want to practice draw, practice draw. But again pretty much a new guy thing from watching cowboy flicks.

as an also ran scrub, and probably the WORSE A shooter in the country,, I could run a pretty consistent 1.20 to 1 second A zone  at 7 yards.  The best GM's are probably in the .6 to .8 area.  I figured when I started losing to GM's by less than a half second, I'd start working on my draw to an open target.

By far the time killer in USPSA is getting into a position and getting first shot off, and then getting moving from out of that position after the last shot.

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2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Id call it a starting position that will never be used at any competition I have ever shot so why bother.

 

If you want to practice draw, practice draw.

 

@Flea disregard the above.

 

Evidently Mr 4d has never heard of micro drills as a way to break down a complex task or motion into manageable chunks.

 

Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel, just buy a good dry fire training book aimed at our sport.  Ben Stoeger has good ones, I think Steve Anderson does as well.

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48 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

@Flea disregard the above.

 

Evidently Mr 4d has never heard of micro drills as a way to break down a complex task or motion into manageable chunks.

 

Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel, just buy a good dry fire training book aimed at our sport.  Ben Stoeger has good ones, I think Steve Anderson does as well.

 I have one book from both and that's why I did this drill. To isolate just that part of the draw. I didn't say it, but the drill was live fire. At 8 yards, I was averaging 1.3 to 1.5 seconds and that's just rubbish.

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Shultz seems to get more  full of himself with every post. I think Admins need to get involved. Its getting old.

bringing your weak hand over to your strong  hip isnt any break down of any task. unless you are doing cowboy quick draw with a SAA. 

If you were starting from somewhere your hands normally would meet during a draw I could see it. Not sure what the benefit of this over far more productive drills. But if you like it , hey its trigger time. Just seems awkward to me.

Far as times for that though, I agree something is amiss.. Maybe do some slow mo video with sound to see what the hold up is. How fast are you reacting to the beep ? Note that timers beep for a second, and start recording time at the end of the beep,( or the older ones did)  So a guy with a faster beep reaction but the same draw and fire speed could have a better time.

Another thing I question is your firearm and if it fits your natural point of aim... Like maybe you are hunting for the sights because the grip angle is off or grips are too fat for you.
One of the cool things about a 1911, flat vs arched mainspring housing and different brands can shift gun up and down. fatter or thinner grips left and right.
alot of guns these days have rear grip inserts for that as well. Dont chose by feel chose by natural point of aim. Not sure what can be done about left or right though.
Try this next practice,,, do yoour same drill in dry fire,,, Stare down your target, then at the beep close your eyes and draw, at full extension, open your eyes and see where your gun is aiming. You MAY be able to physically adjust your gun, or move to a better fitting gun.

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1 hour ago, Flea said:

 I have one book from both and that's why I did this drill. To isolate just that part of the draw. I didn't say it, but the drill was live fire. At 8 yards, I was averaging 1.3 to 1.5 seconds and that's just rubbish.

You take your 1.3 - 1.5 and try to improve on that. Try shooting for 1.2 seconds. Then 1.1, etc... Remember, this is just for that micro drill, not full draw practice. 

 

Why is it 1.3 to 1.5, and not consistently 1.4x ? Are you losing time on your reaction to the beep ? Are you wasting time "acquiring" a sight picture before firing ? Are you still getting a grip on the gun ? What happens if you just fire the round as soon as you reach full extension ? Do you see the sights ? Do you pause and focus down on the sight ? Do you need to focus, or are you wasting time with the focal shift when you don't need to ? There are so many little bits to the draw process that you can take the same motion, and focus on different aspects of that motion, and essentially have different drills. 

 

You can further modify your micro-drill by starting with a loose two-handed grip in a "ready" type of position. On the beeper, present out and fire. This removes the two hands coming together, and may help zero in on that last portion of the draw. In my experience, and what I've seen others do over the years, is waste too much time at the end of the draw presentation, before firing the round. 

 

At some point you obviously need to put all the micro drills together into full draws, but working on the little pieces is where the improvement is made. 

 

Not to mention that you have to practice moving/drawing, drawing/moving, in all directions as most first shots in a match aren't a static standing draw to a target. 

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51 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Shultz seems to get more  full of himself with every post. I think Admins need to get involved. Its getting old.

bringing your weak hand over to your strong  hip isnt any break down of any task. unless you are doing cowboy quick draw with a SAA. 

If you were starting from somewhere your hands normally would meet during a draw I could see it. Not sure what the benefit of this over far more productive drills. But if you like it , hey its trigger time. Just seems awkward to me.

Far as times for that though, I agree something is amiss.. Maybe do some slow mo video with sound to see what the hold up is. How fast are you reacting to the beep ? Note that timers beep for a second, and start recording time at the end of the beep,( or the older ones did)  So a guy with a faster beep reaction but the same draw and fire speed could have a better time.

Another thing I question is your firearm and if it fits your natural point of aim... Like maybe you are hunting for the sights because the grip angle is off or grips are too fat for you.
One of the cool things about a 1911, flat vs arched mainspring housing and different brands can shift gun up and down. fatter or thinner grips left and right.
alot of guns these days have rear grip inserts for that as well. Dont chose by feel chose by natural point of aim. Not sure what can be done about left or right though.
Try this next practice,,, do yoour same drill in dry fire,,, Stare down your target, then at the beep close your eyes and draw, at full extension, open your eyes and see where your gun is aiming. You MAY be able to physically adjust your gun, or move to a better fitting gun.

With all due respect to your self proclaimed status as the "worse A shooter in the country", but saying that his micro drill isn't worth doing because it's not done in any competition seems pretty silly when you turn around and suggest he draw with his eyes closed, which is also never done in any competition.

 

FWIW, the "beep" lasts for .30 seconds, and the timer starts recording at the beginning of the beep. At least, that's how all the timers worked that I've ever used. 

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5 hours ago, Joe4d said:

If you want to practice draw, practice draw. But again pretty much a new guy thing from watching cowboy flicks.as an also ran scrub, and probably the WORSE A shooter in the country,, I could run a pretty consistent 1.20 to 1 second A zone  at 7 yards.  The best GM's are probably in the .6 to .8 area. 

 

Max Michel demonstrated a 0.7 second draw to a sight picture at the last NRA annual I attended, I think that is sort of par for the pro's. He is so ridiculously efficient in movement that he looked sort of slow doing it. 

Last time I checked myself (at 60+) I was able to get one draw to a near target alpha at 0.97 seconds but more typically around 1.1, that is an old B class hacker guy drawing a production gun out of a production legal holster that never practiced micro drills or whatever, just the full normal draw. It should not take a younger person much work to get there. 

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2 hours ago, Flea said:

 I have one book from both and that's why I did this drill. To isolate just that part of the draw. I didn't say it, but the drill was live fire. At 8 yards, I was averaging 1.3 to 1.5 seconds and that's just rubbish.

 

Someone else already gave you the way forward: improve on your baseline.

 

If 1.4 sec average is what you can do now in that micro drill, take 10% off and make that your new par time.  BTW 10% is an arbitrary number.  There's a balance somewhere between goals so aggressive that they lead to frustration and goals so easy that they don't push you much.

 

But in this case, a 10% reduction gives you 1.26 seconds.  I think that's a reasonable first step

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Thanks for the input. I'm 59 just for context. I have a Gen 5 G34 with a Romeo Max 3. Only owned it a few months and have less than 2,000 rounds through it. My index is utter crap....I don't have one yet. At five yards I was getting sub 1 second hits but I sure as hell wasn't seeing a red dot. I was basically point shooting. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it's just that being a relatively new shooter, I think I should really first learn how to shoot using the dot. Then when that is second nature, good old point shooting and just relying on a consistent index with my arm position will be what I strive for at certain distances.

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2 hours ago, Flea said:

Thanks for the input. I'm 59 just for context. I have a Gen 5 G34 with a Romeo Max 3. Only owned it a few months and have less than 2,000 rounds through it. My index is utter crap....I don't have one yet. At five yards I was getting sub 1 second hits but I sure as hell wasn't seeing a red dot. I was basically point shooting. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it's just that being a relatively new shooter, I think I should really first learn how to shoot using the dot. Then when that is second nature, good old point shooting and just relying on a consistent index with my arm position will be what I strive for at certain distances.

 

We all started where you are.  I'm 54 and I just finished my second full season.

 

Make a plan, stick to it, and don't chase the latest gun/optic/shiny gimmick that comes along.

 

Dry fire is your friend.

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On 11/28/2020 at 4:10 PM, Flea said:

Thanks for the input. I'm 59 just for context. I have a Gen 5 G34 with a Romeo Max 3. Only owned it a few months and have less than 2,000 rounds through it.

 

 

       Don't be too hard on yourself.  You're doing fine for the length of time you have in.  Lots of good advice already from others, I just wanted to say " Don't beat yourself up." As you keep trying and working on it, you WILL improve. Incremental progress comes over time and with effort.  If I might suggest some reading material, Ben's book, and Lanny Bassham's " With Winning in Mind"  are great motivators, and will help you find good ways of thinking about practice and competition. 

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Flea, from what you wrote there are two lower hanging fruits.  I am not good at this either but I had similar issues therefore it seems that if you can draw in 1.0 s without aiming the sights you can get to 1 s or close with aiming.  The place to improve is your reaction time to the timer as already mentioned and a constant presentation to avoid ‘hunting for the dot’.  Keep practicing and reducing your par time. Anderson’s Refinement and Repetition works the best for me at my level as it is easy to follow.  Ask a local GM for some pointers and keep at it.  The consistent support-hand placement made big difference for me, more so than the strong hand. 

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There is a bit of misconception of what a "1s draw" is in the first place - the "front end" is the reaction time and mechanical speed to bring the gun to firing position, but there is also the "back end" which consists of seeing the sights, recognizing the sight picture and executing a good (enough) trigger pull. 

 

facelessman above talks about it and it's a very good post. The back end of the draw is where a lot of time is lost and it's also one that is hard (let's say "tricky") to do in dry fire because you have to be brutally honest with what you see and when. It's easy to think of the draw ending when the mechanical movement of the arms stops, but it actually ends with the trigger pull. The back end of the draw is what must overlap the front end, where you learn to recognize the sights early and before they settle, or you will be way too slow. And this "slow" will be not because of having slow hand movement, but because of not doing back end "soon enough."

 

Now, almost every dry fire book will tell you NOT to pull the trigger. This is because you need to get to graduate to the "tricky" part of understanding the trigger pull in dry fire, so you can practice it correctly. If you don't, you can get to a very fast trigger pull that will coincide with the end of movement of your hands, but with completely skipping the back end of the draw and thus sending a random round at the target that will hit from time to time, but you'll be scratching your head about the lack of consistency. 

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I posted this in another unrelated thread, a small PowerPoint slide that explains the draw... 

SpeedCurve.png.73548dd5a21f3fdd8e83dcb477f4e666.png

Notice that your metric is consistency (the percentage of good hits), not the speed of getting gun up and in front of your face. You have to push the top of the curve to the left by seeing sooner, not necessarily by moving hands faster. You push the bottom of the curve to the left by moving faster, where your hand movement speed is there, but consistency isn't. 

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