DQ or not?

[Brooke]

On 11/28/2020 at 12:46 AM, warpspeed said:

 

 

Stages can be challenging and safe at the same time.  If you intentionally build a stage to see if you can get a shooter to break a rule and be DQ'd then you shouldn't be playing the game either.

 

We were all new shooters at some point and come to competitive shooting with different backgrounds, skills and aspirations.  Be nice.

 

 

 

 

What ? How is the stage designer responsible for what the shooter does especially in this case of opening a door....a car door at that. Do i think the IDPA goofy stages are a good idea...No...but that doesn't mean the shooter is not solely responsible for acting safely according to the rules..

 

I'm sorry for this person. I wish it had not happened, but don't blame the stage designer.

[perttime]

1 hour ago, Brooke said:

 

What ? How is the stage designer responsible for what the shooter does especially in this case of opening a door....a car door at that. Do i think the IDPA goofy stages are a good idea...No...but that doesn't mean the shooter is not solely responsible for acting safely according to the rules..

 

I'm sorry for this person. I wish it had not happened, but don't blame the stage designer.

 

Put it this way:

A Match stage designer should not design a stage to trick shooters to break rules. A Range Master should verify that there are no DQ Traps.

 

An example: at the matches in my area, designers are scrupulous in preventing you from seeing targets from locations where you'd break the 180. They will place targets near 180, and use doors and hatches where some care is needed to avoid sweeping yourself.

 

My game is currently IPSC, and shooting from vehicles isn't allowed because: 2.1.3 Minimum Distances – Whenever metal targets or metal hard cover are used in a course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors and Match Officials maintain a minimum distance of 7 meters from them while they are being shot.

[IHAVEGAS]

12 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

Speak for yourself.

Many of "us" do understand them.

 

I have never found anyone that did in USPSA.

Have watched the USPSA rules head honcho + the president + a very well respected range master debate number of procedurals at a level 2. Also my very well respected r.o. class instructor gave me incorrect instruction (overridden by T.M.)  on a question during class - when I shared T.M.'s different answer he responded by explaining that T.M. was the chief but he had to answer according to the rule book. 

My favorite rules thing was a starting position disagreement between the CRO and myself as RO at a level 2. When we asked for clarification from the heavily experienced and well respected range master he responded that "the CRO was right, but I was technically right" . 

 

Etc. 

[Jollymon32]

14 hours ago, perttime said:

 

 

An example: at the matches in my area, designers are scrupulous in preventing you from seeing targets from locations where you'd break the 180. They will place targets near 180, and use doors and hatches where some care is needed to avoid sweeping yourself.

Scrupulous?  More like just following the rules.... 2.1.1, and 2.1.4

 

[SGT_Schultz]

On 11/29/2020 at 9:41 PM, Whoops! said:

https://uspsa.org/viewer/2020-USPSA-Competition-Rules.pdf
 

We have this 122 page one.

 

https://www.idpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/IDPA-Rulebook-2017.pdf

 

And this 41 pager.

 

https://www.3gunnation.com/wp-content/uploads/3GN-RULES-FEB-2019.pdf

 

And 3 gun nation fits all of their stuff into 29.

 

And many new people to our sport are used to going to the golf course and needing to know when to yell “four.”  Or going to a shooting range and needing to know a list of 9 rules.

 

 

Complexities in scoring, divisions, etc. are all tradeoffs taken away from the safety front.

 

The people designing the books shouldn’t expect new people to understand them after they get past ten pages.

 

The same way that none of us understand them, even the ones making them, as evidenced by incorrect questions on the RO exams.

 

Human Factors says to create a new book, in addition to the professional sports league sized ones we have.

 

Something titled “Must know Safety for Newcomers,” or something along those lines.

 

 

 

 

 

 

LOL.....................I see the school system has failed

 

And that "Must Know Safety for Newcomers" is chapter 10, in case you were wondering

[Brooke]

On 11/30/2020 at 10:15 PM, Jollymon32 said:

Scrupulous?  More like just following the rules.... 2.1.1, and 2.1.4

 

Exactly!

[perttime]

On 12/1/2020 at 5:15 AM, Jollymon32 said:

Scrupulous?  More like just following the rules.... 2.1.1, and 2.1.4

 

 

Apparently, that makes us different from many others.

[Rjz5400]

There is the "it's unloaded!" attitude, and it's problem.

 

One of the 4 basic rules is Treat All Guns As Loaded All The Time. 

Another 

Don't Point The Muzzle at Anything You Aren't Willing To Destroy.

 

Seems simple to me and I encounter it out of 150 shooters maybe once or more. Rules or no rules don't point a gun at me or anyone else, ever. 

 

Easy

I just wanted to edit and add that I myself taken a trip to dairy queen, with good reason and have seen others DQ also. 

 

Just saying that the goal should be to start from the 4 basic rules of safe gun handling and if only 1 is broken at a time, no-one gets shot. I like that margin of error for the deadly weapons we use for the sport/game. 

"It's empty!" Comes up way too often 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Rjz5400
Add Humility?

[bofe954]

Anyone see the Glock 44 used for this? Think the Ruger is a better choice?

[Ccampo1129]

Any time you sweep yourself.....DQ!!! anytime

[Cuz]

7 hours ago, Ccampo1129 said:

Any time you sweep yourself.....DQ!!! anytime

Umm, not really. 
 

Rule 10.5.5.1 Exception - A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering a handgun, provided that the competitor's fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard.

[Ccampo1129]

On 6/28/2021 at 4:56 AM, Cuz said:

Umm, not really. 
 

Rule 10.5.5.1 Exception - A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering a handgun, provided that the competitor's fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard.

Very true. Did not even think about that as sweeping. Ive also seen people bend over to pick up brass and their muzzle sweep me or others while their pistol is holstered. Id assume this would fall under the same rule? Just curious. Good point

[Cuz]

14 minutes ago, Ccampo1129 said:

Very true. Did not even think about that as sweeping. Ive also seen people bend over to pick up brass and their muzzle sweep me or others while their pistol is holstered. Id assume this would fall under the same rule? Just curious. Good point

I had to look it up myself, because my kid asked what happens if he sweeps his foot while holstering during “make ready”.  He is shooting his first USPSA match in a couple of weeks. 

[waktasz]

39 minutes ago, Ccampo1129 said:

Very true. Did not even think about that as sweeping. Ive also seen people bend over to pick up brass and their muzzle sweep me or others while their pistol is holstered. Id assume this would fall under the same rule? Just curious. Good point

 

Read all of 10.5.5.1 in the rulebook. It covers both situations. 

[davebenson]

On 11/27/2020 at 9:06 AM, Sophie said:

Is it right to get DQed when in slidelock?

We had a stage where 10 rds were fired from inside a car.  After those 10 I was in slidelock. I exited the car planning on my reload at the next target position. I was told to stop. RO said that I had swept myself exiting the car. DQed me.

Should the RO DQ you for sweeping yourself it is hard to dispute this call.  If you disagree remember video and photos are not allowed as evidence.  
 

your recourse is to ask for a review of the call by the range master. It is at that time you may re-enact your actions plead your case, beg on your knees to see if the RM will overrule the Call.  What do you have to lose?  A potential reshoot if you don’t. 
 

In all my years as CRO I have only seen a sweeping DQ overturned a couple of times.  Those were because the RM determined the RO was not in a good position to clearly see the muzzle of the gun. 
 

sweeping calls after the fact are difficult to dispute.  
 

in your case being at slide lock should have nothing to do with the sweeping DQ. 
 

as an RO if you see someone sweeping their self make your call definitely and positivity.  If you as an RO act a little questionable about your call  the shooter should always ask for a review by the RM. 

[bravofox]

unfortunately according to the rules it's a DQ

[AzShooter]

Sophie, you handled yourself with class.  Don't get discouraged by Range Lawyers it's easy to make a mistake as a beginner and I've seen higher rated shooters do the same thing.  

 

Running with your finger in the trigger guard is something everyone knows about but I've seen a lot of shooters do it. I don't criticize them but will explain what they did afterwards.  There is no reason to belittle a shooter.

 

Hope you are not turned off.  Keep coming out and watch the better shooters.  You will have fun.

[ChuckS]

FWIW, "Sophie" has been away for a while:

[Murzikrv]

DQ. 100%

[maur]

Unfortunately yes it is.