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1 hour ago, Sophie said:

Yes there is.

 

If there was a difference, your "mistake" would not get you sent home. 

 

There reason you "mistake" and intentionally pointing a handgun at someone end with you being sent home is because the CONSEQUENCES are potentially the same.

 

The fact that you can't grasp this lets me know you should not be trusted with firearms.

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3 hours ago, Sarge said:

So, just so I understand, if I don’t build a completely idiot proof stage I’m a knucklehead. And yes I’m sorry, but if a shooter does not know they can’t point a gun at themselves or anybody else without being DQ’ed they really shouldn’t be playing yet.

 

 

Stages can be challenging and safe at the same time.  If you intentionally build a stage to see if you can get a shooter to break a rule and be DQ'd then you shouldn't be playing the game either.

 

We were all new shooters at some point and come to competitive shooting with different backgrounds, skills and aspirations.  Be nice.

 

 

 

Edited by warpspeed
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I've seen it a lot with seated starts. They often will really emphasize the need to being careful to not sweep yourself as you draw. Most shooters will carefully position themselves and make extra effort at the start.  But some shooters, even when specifically instructed and warned appear to just go as fast as they can at the beep ignoring the warnings. 

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6 hours ago, waktasz said:

... At least she's trying to learn, even if it's a dumb question, lol

 

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Dumb Question.

 

On the topic of stages where the competitor may need to be extra careful: many matches have stages where you need to move uprange, away from the targets. You'll need to think about where and how you are going to point the gun, so you dont 1) break 180 or 2 ) sweep yourself.

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7 hours ago, warpspeed said:

If you intentionally build a stage to see if you can get a shooter to break a rule and be DQ'd then you shouldn't be playing the game either.

 

 

I've done it for local IDPA matches and it has been a good training tool.

Give a stage a subtle hint name like "Don't break 180" , during the s.o. walk through emphasize that every squad is cautioned about the need not to screw up, and make sure the shooter will be in plain site of the squad when doing the tricky bits. New shooters get to see how the experienced shooters do the tricky parts right and get practice doing the tricky stuff right. 

You can not protect shooters in the long term from needing to be able to do things like running backwards with a gun or reloading when moving to the weak side, I prefer training over avoidance. When a local shooter goes to their first higher level match I don't want that to be where they learn about dq's.

 

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11 hours ago, Sophie said:

Of course I know that. That wasn't my question, was it?

I made a mistake & openly admitted it, accepted the consequences, and will learn from it.

Is there really a need to be so condescending? 

 

Apparently there is, at least Enos is not as ugly as Facebook and twitter though, the important thing is that you do not let it bug you. 

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Before this goes any further, I think that it's time to remind everyone of the guidelines about attitude....

Attitude
Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful.
No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter.
Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable.

 

BEnos is a place to learn and share, not to be scolded.

Thank you.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, warpspeed said:

 If you intentionally build a stage to see if you can get a shooter to break a rule and be DQ'd then you shouldn't be playing the game either.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS AT ANY MATCH. NOR HAVE I HEARD IT MENTIONED AS A THING TO DO.

 

We were all new shooters at some point YEP. I HAD GLANCED OVER THE RULES AND WAS MARGINALLY FAMILIAR. BUT I KNEW GUN HANDLING PRINCIPLES, TO INCLUDE NOT POINTING A GUN AT ANYTHING I WASN'T WILLING TO DESTROY.

 

 

 

This is a dangerous game. We were just reminded of that a few weeks ago when somebody died because of a holstering mistake. Stage difficulty or trying to get a shooter DQED didn’t even play a part in it.

  Please excuse me when I don’t coddle every new shooter that comes along.

  Sophie, yes it is a DQ even though the slide was locked back. Imagine for a moment if there were still a round in the mag and you bump the steering wheel with the gun and it closes and strips that round into the gun and somehow the gun goes bang. If it were pointing at your leg you would then be shot. 

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Just now, Sarge said:

This is a dangerous game. We were just reminded of that a few weeks ago when somebody died because of a holstering mistake. Stage difficulty or trying to get a shooter DQED didn’t even play a part in it.

  Please excuse me when I don’t coddle every new shooter that comes along.

  Sophie, yes it is a DQ even though the slide was locked back. Imagine for a moment if there were still a round in the mag and you bump the steering wheel with the gun and it closes and strips that round into the gun and somehow the gun goes bang. If it were pointing at your leg you would then be shot. 

Sarge, thank you. 

FWIW, I don't expect to be "coddled" or chastised.

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5 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I've done it for local IDPA matches and it has been a good training tool.

Give a stage a subtle hint name like "Don't break 180" , during the s.o. walk through emphasize that every squad is cautioned about the need not to screw up, and make sure the shooter will be in plain site of the squad when doing the tricky bits. New shooters get to see how the experienced shooters do the tricky parts right and get practice doing the tricky stuff right. 

You can not protect shooters in the long term from needing to be able to do things like running backwards with a gun or reloading when moving to the weak side, I prefer training over avoidance. When a local shooter goes to their first higher level match I don't want that to be where they learn about dq's.

 

 

Sounds like you get it.

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Nobody got hurt, you learned from it, just move on and keep enjoying the game.   By the way, you said that 10 shots were fired... I haven't shot IDPA in a while but typically the COF says that the gun must be loaded to division capacity which generally means 10+1 in the chamber.  So, if you loaded properly, you might have still had a loaded round in the chamber.  

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2 hours ago, mvmojo said:

Nobody got hurt, you learned from it, just move on and keep enjoying the game.   By the way, you said that 10 shots were fired... I haven't shot IDPA in a while but typically the COF says that the gun must be loaded to division capacity which generally means 10+1 in the chamber.  So, if you loaded properly, you might have still had a loaded round in the chamber.  

 

An unloaded start will have you running empty in 10 rounds.

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8 hours ago, mvmojo said:

Nobody got hurt, you learned from it, just move on and keep enjoying the game.   By the way, you said that 10 shots were fired... I haven't shot IDPA in a while but typically the COF says that the gun must be loaded to division capacity which generally means 10+1 in the chamber.  So, if you loaded properly, you might have still had a loaded round in the chamber.  

9 rd mags + 1 = 10

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22 hours ago, Sarge said:

This is a dangerous game. <snip> ...yes, it is a DQ even though the slide was locked back. Imagine for a moment if there were still a round in the mag and you bump the steering wheel with the gun and it closes and strips that round into the gun and somehow the gun goes bang. If it were pointing at your leg you would then be shot. 

 

This ^^.  Jeff Cooper's four rules, plus the safety rules of our our respective sports, are what keep us safe.  Not "well, nobody got hurt when I did that" or "no problem, it wasn't loaded". 

 

(We hear too much of those last two, and folks who utter them are voicing a disregard for the reality of what we're doing, not to mention the laws of physics and Murphy's Law 😏)

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1 hour ago, mvmojo said:

Ah ha... 9 round mags.  Sounds like a single stack 9mm (I use 10 round mags in mine).  Had nothing to do with the DQ, just a observation.

 

No, it's not just 9 round magazines.

 

You can't load 10 + 1 (in the divisions where 10 rounds is max magazine capacity) in IDPA for an unloaded start, same as USPSA Production.  So you will run dry after 10 shots and an unloaded start.

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Even when warned, some people can’t help but make underhanded remarks.  A lot of people. 

 

This is a dangerous sport and new people should be familiar with the safety rules.

 

But I understand why new people don’t understand every page of such a huge and convoluted rule book - especially when it doesn’t break down differences in unloaded vs loaded.

 

All of us had people who helped us when we were new.

 

Pass it on.

 

No one here is completely right and some humility is warranted.

 

 

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https://uspsa.org/viewer/2020-USPSA-Competition-Rules.pdf
 

We have this 122 page one.

 

https://www.idpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/IDPA-Rulebook-2017.pdf

 

And this 41 pager.

 

https://www.3gunnation.com/wp-content/uploads/3GN-RULES-FEB-2019.pdf

 

And 3 gun nation fits all of their stuff into 29.

 

And many new people to our sport are used to going to the golf course and needing to know when to yell “four.”  Or going to a shooting range and needing to know a list of 9 rules.

 

 

Complexities in scoring, divisions, etc. are all tradeoffs taken away from the safety front.

 

The people designing the books shouldn’t expect new people to understand them after they get past ten pages.

 

The same way that none of us understand them, even the ones making them, as evidenced by incorrect questions on the RO exams.

 

Human Factors says to create a new book, in addition to the professional sports league sized ones we have.

 

Something titled “Must know Safety for Newcomers,” or something along those lines.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Whoops! said:

But I understand why new people don’t understand every page of such a huge and convoluted rule book - especially when it doesn’t break down differences in unloaded vs loaded.

Seems pretty clear to me.

USPSA Competition Rules

 

Loaded firearm

A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the

chamber or cylinder or having a live or dummy round in a magazine

inserted in the firearm.

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