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I wish Production wasn't dying


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2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Fast swingers is the really hard part to me. You could teach a monkey to reload and a dedicated monkey would practice it enough to become proficient. 

That’s true you can do anything with more practice

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On 1/4/2021 at 10:46 AM, waktasz said:

Why would allowing more guns and more modifications in Production have limited participation? 


Opening up the division to 59oz custom shop DA/SA raceguns which 80% of the divison shoots REALLY chased off the 5% of the field who want the division to require a bone stock G34 with plastic sights.

 

80% vs 5%. The math checks out.

 

;) 

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Nationals for "locap" is 17 weeks away. Prod currently has 61 people registered as I post this. Sixty one. Fully one third of that field is M or GM. (13 M and 8 GM) I will register when it becomes open registration.

 

Last year only 152 people shot the match. If 90 more people register then no change from last year. But looking at it over my time participating....

 

In 2020 there were 152 (Florida)

In 2019 there were 241 of us in Prod. (Florida)

In 2018 there were 246 of us in Prod. (Florida)

In 2017 the first of the "combo" nats there were 230 in Prod. (Utah)

In 2016 there were 371 at a stand alone Prod nats. (Illinois)

In 2015, my first year shooting Prod nats when it was a totally stand alone match there were 375 competitors. (Illinois)

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2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Nationals for "locap" is 17 weeks away. Prod currently has 61 people registered as I post this. Sixty one. Fully one third of that field is M or GM. (13 M and 8 GM) I will register when it becomes open registration.

 

makes sense. All the real badasses are shooting seniorstack.....   (like me, btw..... ;)  )

 

I'm also guessing the people who have already registered are either darned good (earned slots from their area match), or are decrepit RO staff like myself that are shooting ss/revo.

Edited by motosapiens
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3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Last year only 152 people shot the match. If 90 more people register then no change from last year. But looking at it over my time participating..

 

Not that Production is not going the way of SS...  it might be... or maybe not, given the political climate, we don't know.  But are you considering the point of combined divisions that draw and split the pool of talent, like CO and Prod last year?  Makes me think if a combined Open/Low Cap and PCC/CO/Lim might be a better combination to maximize the numbers of each division.

 

 

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10 hours ago, nasty618 said:

 

Not that Production is not going the way of SS...  it might be... or maybe not, given the political climate, we don't know.  But are you considering the point of combined divisions that draw and split the pool of talent, like CO and Prod last year?  Makes me think if a combined Open/Low Cap and PCC/CO/Lim might be a better combination to maximize the numbers of each division.

 

 

you can see where i delineate it going from a stand alone, 2016 and prior, to being a combination match in 2017 onward.  so yes i considered it.

 

also you'll see in my post i make no assessment or evaluation. i just present numbers present at matches over a certain time frame. just data, no analysis.

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15 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Nationals for "locap" is 17 weeks away. Prod currently has 61 people registered as I post this. Sixty one. Fully one third of that field is M or GM. (13 M and 8 GM) I will register when it becomes open registration.

 

Last year only 152 people shot the match. If 90 more people register then no change from last year. But looking at it over my time participating....

 

In 2020 there were 152 (Florida)

In 2019 there were 241 of us in Prod. (Florida)

In 2018 there were 246 of us in Prod. (Florida)

In 2017 the first of the "combo" nats there were 230 in Prod. (Utah)

In 2016 there were 371 at a stand alone Prod nats. (Illinois)

In 2015, my first year shooting Prod nats when it was a totally stand alone match there were 375 competitors. (Illinois)

Why such a drop in participation when it moved to Florida? 

 

Is it splitting participation with combined matches or the location? 

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2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

also you'll see in my post i make no assessment or evaluation

Yes, I was hoping to hear your opinion on why and if a different combination might fix things somewhat.

 

Personally, if it's 300 or 100... I can't say "I don't care".  I do, to an extent. But as long as the returning champion is there - for me it's all that matters.  For the outcome I'm looking for in a Nationals, which is my performance and improvement gains as compared to the champ's results, it could be just the two of us. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

Yes, I was hoping to hear your opinion on why and if a different combination might fix things somewhat.

 

Personally, if it's 300 or 100... I can't say "I don't care".  I do, to an extent. But as long as the returning champion is there - for me it's all that matters.  For the outcome I'm looking for in a Nationals, which is my performance and improvement gains as compared to the champ's results, it could be just the two of us. 

 

 

when the National Champion didn't go in 2020, that should tell you something.

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My memory may be bad but I vaguely remember not liking going to PASA Park to shoot Prod Nats because it felt the same year after year. I didn't like the location, definitely nothing to do away from the range. And I didn't like the solid walls. I don't remember humidity or rain issues.

 

Parking was fine, bays were fine, hiking up and down the hill was fine. There were actual vendors there, we (Automatic Accuracy) even took a gunsmith a few times who was kept very busy. But all that stuff doesn't really matter, just me reminiscing.

 

The question was, is production dying? Is the number of people participating in the division at Nationals partly a way to answer this question? I do not think so, because over the three years of combo-nats Prod numbers increased. I also do not think Nats participation answers the question because the number of available slots isn't indexed to membership who has shot a Prod classifier or match score in the same year. If more or less people shoot Prod locally it doesn't effect the number of shooting slots available for Nats.

 

Do match entry numbers per division self normalize to reflect the general membership's participation in each division? Is the percentage of Lim, Open, CO, Prod entries at a match directly proportional to their local activity numbers?

 

It would be interesting to look at the total numbers of people who shot even just a single match in a division (Prod) during the 6 months prior to the Nats. (now I'm going to totally just make up some numbers for an example) Let's say of the 34,825 people who are uspsa members 30,000 of them are active and of those let's say 5,000 of them had shot a Prod classifier or match score in the past 6 months. If 250 people go to Nats that is just 5% of the members who  have recently have shot Prod. So I don't think we can say Prod is dying off of Nats numbers.

 

To me the only way to say if Prod is dying is to look at how many Prod classifiers have been turned in year to year from 2010 through 2020. And I definitely don't have those numbers.

 

But just off of feel and the extremely limited sample size of where I shoot in Texas, the number of people who would identify Prod as their main division of focus and match entries has decreased. Let's say 25%. @shred

 

 

Edited by rowdyb
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58 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Two new divisions in the last 5 yrs? 

 

🤔....................

 

Both are "easier" (in theory)🤔................

 

 

 

wasn't the 2 new divisions supposed to grow uspsa not take people from other divisions?

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At a guess, one of the problems with this year's attendance will be how early it is, and the continued uncertainty about what various states will be doing with regard to covid restrictions.

 

I'd be curious as to what the registration was in past years at this point in time, given that general registration isn't open yet, and most Sections only got their slots a couple of weeks ago.

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32 minutes ago, DirkD said:

wasn't the 2 new divisions supposed to grow uspsa not take people from other divisions?

It probably has grown USPSA overall but also diluted the existing divisions. 

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19 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

It probably has grown USPSA overall but also diluted the existing divisions. 

 

Such is inevitable when a more popular option appears and I wish people would

a) stop wringing their hands about it

b) stop arguing that a change will dilute an existing division

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28 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Such is inevitable when a more popular option appears and I wish people would

a) stop wringing their hands about it

b) stop arguing that a change will dilute an existing division

"such is inevitable".    

 

 

"Stop saying it will happen"

 

Is that what you're saying?  Kinda seems like that's what you're saying. 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, rowdyb said:

It would be interesting to look at the total numbers of people who shot even just a single match in a division (Prod) during the 6 months prior to the Nats. (now I'm going to totally just make up some numbers for an example) Let's say of the 34,825 people who are uspsa members 30,000 of them are active and of those let's say 5,000 of them had shot a Prod classifier or match score in the past 6 months. If 250 people go to Nats that is just 5% of the members who  have recently have shot Prod. So I don't think we can say Prod is dying off of Nats numbers.

 

To me the only way to say if Prod is dying is to look at how many Prod classifiers have been turned in year to year from 2010 through 2020. And I definitely don't have those numbers.

 

Locally there's a lot less heat in Production, but some of that's due to a few good people cutting back on shooting.    When (if) they reappear, I suspect they'll be back into PD.

 

Division popularity at the local level seems to wax and wane with time.  At one point our matches were very Limited heavy, but these days there's only a small handful.  Open faded for a while but is picking back a little.  Comes and goes.  The new hotness is always popular (except when that hotness is Single Stack ;))

 

USPSA did some charts on division participation a year ago.  Hopefully they'll do another one soon.

 

https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20200214_2 Mike Foley 2020 Presentation.pdf

 

Around about slide 16, they break down what looks like Mission Count numbers.  Personally I think the takeaway on slide 19 could also read "People like Hicap.  People like 9mm", rather than iron vs optic, but y'all are free to Rorschach as you see fit.

 

 

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On 1/7/2021 at 6:25 AM, DirkD said:

Why such a drop in participation when it moved to Florida? 

 

Is it splitting participation with combined matches or the location? 

Holding nationals in the southeast has contributed to me skipping out on the matches. I would like to go shoot Revo this year, but with Covid sticking around I don't want to deal with traveling. I'm planning on shooting majors closer to home instead.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just wish there was a range smack in the middle of the country that is.....

capable of sponsoring /holding the match

capable of possessing the proper stage equipment / wifi / clubhouse etc

capable of housing staff and participants at a reasonable distance from the range.

I just think FL and Utah are a haul for people on the opposite side of the country and influence peoples travel.

Tulsa seems to be ideal, but wants nothing to do with us .....

 

 

 

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On 1/17/2021 at 2:04 PM, cnote said:

I just wish there was a range smack in the middle of the country that is.....

capable of sponsoring /holding the match

capable of possessing the proper stage equipment / wifi / clubhouse etc

capable of housing staff and participants at a reasonable distance from the range.

I just think FL and Utah are a haul for people on the opposite side of the country and influence peoples travel.

Tulsa seems to be ideal, but wants nothing to do with us .....

 

 

 

I wonder what folks thought of the PCC nationals when they were at Sellersburgh In? About a 30 minute drive to the Louisville Ky airport. I'm high on that location after working 3 level 2 matches there but my opinion is biased because I like the folks who I know at that club and have shot there a good bit. 

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I range "smack dead in the middle" is still too far for people on either coast to drive (typically). 

 

No matter what, a lot of people, probably half or more, have to fly. 

Edited by B_RAD
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