I wish Production wasn't dying

[RJH]

Now it looks like there's a sig, an xdm, and a canik that all come from the factory with a magwell. Looks like that might be the way the industry's heading........

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, RJH said:

Now it looks like there's a sig, an xdm, and a canik that all come from the factory with a magwell. Looks like that might be the way the industry's heading........

 

As someone mentioned above, before the ink is dry on the rule change we'll have brass magwells hitting the market. And I'd guess just about everyone will add on to there gun. This wont be like the flashlight rule where you just see them hear and there. Also they'll likely be much bigger and heavier than the factory parts. I'd probably look at the offerings for limited/open guns as examples. 

 

Not saying we shouldn't do it, just make sure we understand what we're talking about. Those tiny magwells that come from the factory are not really what we're talking about allowing. 

 

I for one will put the biggest MF'er I can on the gun if I'm allowed. I like how a big magwell makes your hand fit on a 2011, plus being able to basically just throw the mag at the gun with out missing. Speaking of 2011, I'm kind switching to the camp of allow SAO in CO. I'd like a excuse to repurpose one or two of my 2011's into CO guns. 

[Sinister4]

18 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

 

I for one will put the biggest MF'er I can on the gun if I'm allowed. I like how a big magwell makes your hand fit on a 2011, plus being able to basically just throw the mag at the gun with out missing. Speaking of 2011, I'm kind switching to the camp of allow SAO in CO. I'd like a excuse to repurpose one or two of my 2011's into CO guns. 

 Yup just make it 9mm minor open, done deal  anything goes just 9mm minor ammo only, its pretty much there already, then I can shoot irons in it to boot lol

[RJH]

18 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

As someone mentioned above, before the ink is dry on the rule change we'll have brass magwells hitting the market. And I'd guess just about everyone will add on to there gun. This wont be like the flashlight rule where you just see them hear and there. Also they'll likely be much bigger and heavier than the factory parts. I'd probably look at the offerings for limited/open guns as examples. 

 

Not saying we shouldn't do it, just make sure we understand what we're talking about. Those tiny magwells that come from the factory are not really what we're talking about allowing. 

 

I for one will put the biggest MF'er I can on the gun if I'm allowed. I like how a big magwell makes your hand fit on a 2011, plus being able to basically just throw the mag at the gun with out missing. Speaking of 2011, I'm kind switching to the camp of allow SAO in CO. I'd like a excuse to repurpose one or two of my 2011's into CO guns. 

I have no problems with any of the issues you brought up. Nobody's carrying any of the guns that people are using to win production. People are carrying micro nines or duty size 9 mm or 40s. Pretty much nobody is carrying even something as tame as a glock 35, much less a heavy sig legion, or a Beretta 92 x steel frame or whatever it is, or a 50 Oz CZ

 

All that to say we're already shooting race guns, so let's shoot race guns and not try to act like we're not LOL

[BritinUSA]

My guess is magwells and perhaps an outside possibility of ported barrels too. This would be for both CO and Production and would include the removal of magazine capacity limits for Production.

 

Then USPSA will four main handgun divisions:

• Open
• Open-Minor (currently CO)
• Limited 
• Limited-Minor (currently Production)

I would add that they will likely allow SAO guns into CO/Production too.

Edited January 24, 2022 by BritinUSA

[vluc]

50 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

My guess is magwells and perhaps an outside possibility of ported barrels too. This would be for both CO and Production and would include the removal of magazine capacity limits for Production.

 

Then USPSA will four main handgun divisions:

• Open
• Open-Minor (currently CO)
• Limited 
• Limited-Minor (currently Production)

I would add that they will likely allow SAO guns into CO/Production too.

 

Well Francis Uncle Charlie Katy...

[BritinUSA]

We should have a Deadpool to see who can most accurately predict the next division change.

[Intheshaw1]

3 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

My guess is magwells and perhaps an outside possibility of ported barrels too. This would be for both CO and Production and would include the removal of magazine capacity limits for Production.

 

Then USPSA will four main handgun divisions:

• Open
• Open-Minor (currently CO)
• Limited 
• Limited-Minor (currently Production)

I would add that they will likely allow SAO guns into CO/Production too.

Ive always thought this would be the end goal with the addition of maybe a low cap division for revolver and single stack. And honestly, at some point I think they will dump major and minor but that's a ways off.

[JWBaldree]

2 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

We should have a Deadpool to see who can most accurately predict the next division change.

This might not count as a Deadpool prediction, but I'd like to see the concept of SAO superiority go away. As a former die-hard and now occasional Production shooter, I could care less if someone wants to run a 9mm 19111 in the same division. By the same token, when I shoot 3 gun I don't get all butt hurt because someone chooses a 1911 and I run my CZ Shadow in DA mode to start. So based on that:

 

Open, CO, Limited, LoCap Irons, plus Revo and PCC just because.

 

Open stays because Top Fuel Drag Racing and Trophy Trucks, CO and Limited stay because it's hard to argue with success, and roll Production and SS together for a low cap division. PCC has extended a lot of older shooter's participation in the sport, plus it has given rifle shooters a playground to experiment with. I see PCC as a positive for the sport so it stays. Revo stays for the three people that shoot it, because where else do you put them? Besides, they'll all be in nursing homes soon enough and we can eliminate the division at the next go around. L-10 can go away from lack of need. So 6 divisions for now, and 5 after the last Rascal Scooter battery back dies. Just kidding Revo guys.

 

I don't really care about mag restrictions. I shoot open, production, singlestack and limited in 3 gun, and enjoy them all. But what if, for the sake of argument, all the high cap divisions were restricted to 140mm, including PCC? As an open shooter, I might be slightly inconvenienced with one more reload per the occasional match, and PCC guys would have to reload on long field courses, which might alleviate some of the hate. For my Lo Cap division, 10 minor / 8 major and go have fun. Just spit balling on the mag capacity thing, I really don't care one way or the other. 

[Jeff226]

6 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

My guess is magwells and perhaps an outside possibility of ported barrels too. This would be for both CO and Production and would include the removal of magazine capacity limits for Production.

 

Then USPSA will four main handgun divisions:

• Open
• Open-Minor (currently CO)
• Limited 
• Limited-Minor (currently Production)

I would add that they will likely allow SAO guns into CO/Production too.

Been politely saying something similar for years.

[BadShot]

9 hours ago, JWBaldree said:

This might not count as a Deadpool prediction, but I'd like to see the concept of SAO superiority go away. As a former die-hard and now occasional Production shooter, I could care less if someone wants to run a 9mm 19111 in the same division. By the same token, when I shoot 3 gun I don't get all butt hurt because someone chooses a 1911 and I run my CZ Shadow in DA mode to start. So based on that:

 

Open, CO, Limited, LoCap Irons, plus Revo and PCC just because.

 

Open stays because Top Fuel Drag Racing and Trophy Trucks, CO and Limited stay because it's hard to argue with success, and roll Production and SS together for a low cap division. PCC has extended a lot of older shooter's participation in the sport, plus it has given rifle shooters a playground to experiment with. I see PCC as a positive for the sport so it stays. Revo stays for the three people that shoot it, because where else do you put them? Besides, they'll all be in nursing homes soon enough and we can eliminate the division at the next go around. L-10 can go away from lack of need. So 6 divisions for now, and 5 after the last Rascal Scooter battery back dies. Just kidding Revo guys.

 

I don't really care about mag restrictions. I shoot open, production, singlestack and limited in 3 gun, and enjoy them all. But what if, for the sake of argument, all the high cap divisions were restricted to 140mm, including PCC? As an open shooter, I might be slightly inconvenienced with one more reload per the occasional match, and PCC guys would have to reload on long field courses, which might alleviate some of the hate. For my Lo Cap division, 10 minor / 8 major and go have fun. Just spit balling on the mag capacity thing, I really don't care one way or the other. 

I like this idea, except I would roll revo in with the rest of the low cap.  I would also add a low cap optic division. 

[Fishbreath]

29 minutes ago, BadShot said:

except I would roll revo in with the rest of the low cap

 

If you're going to have revolvers at all, they need to be separate: they're different from ye standard Production gun in ways a Single Stack 1911 isn't. It's a massive competitive equity issue—you don't need to look any farther than classifier high hit factors to see it.

 

I think you should have revolvers, too, because they represent both an important part of the history of combat handgunning (in which USPSA has its roots, although it's now a sporting endeavor in the same way fencing used to be swordfighting), and half of the taxonomy of handguns, even if they're not widely used in competition.

 

And finally, a drum I bang all the time: low-participation divisions aren't hurting anyone. I've written all of these thoughts up in more detail here.

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

And finally, a drum I bang all the time: low-participation divisions aren't hurting anyone. I've written all of these thoughts up in more detail here.

 

I think we've debated this b4, but it all depends on your perspective. For example

 

I was watching a show on TV where they put all these racers into a competition against each other. They all came from different backgrounds. As they listed their credentials, this one dude stood out to me because he had a ton of national championships under his belt. And the way the course was laid out you'd think he crush it. Clearly he should be in the running to win the whole thing. 1st time he's in the car, he's bad. Like real bad. Like only one to wreck his s#!t bad. Really crashing might of been a good thing because it ended the terrible display of driving he was putting on. 

 

What ever it was that guy competed in clearly has watered down low turn out divisions. He might be a 20 time national champion and sound really good to someone like me not familiar with his exact sport. But, he then makes his entire sport look bad to anyone who see's him compete. In this case, in front of thousands of viewers.  

 

Are we there yet? No I don't think so. But IDPA might be, SC probably is too. 

 

 

[Fishbreath]

36 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I think we've debated this b4, but it all depends on your perspective.

 

This is, indeed, not our first rodeo.

 

36 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I was watching a show on TV where they put all these racers into a competition against each other. They all came from different backgrounds. As they listed their credentials, this one dude stood out to me because he had a ton of national championships under his belt. And the way the course was laid out you'd think he crush it. Clearly he should be in the running to win the whole thing. 1st time he's in the car, he's bad. Like real bad. Like only one to wreck his s#!t bad. Really crashing might of been a good thing because it ended the terrible display of driving he was putting on. 

 

What ever it was that guy competed in clearly has watered down low turn out divisions. He might be a 20 time national champion and sound really good to someone like me not familiar with his exact sport. But, he then makes his entire sport look bad to anyone who see's him compete. In this case, in front of thousands of viewers.  

 

I follow your reasoning, and accept that it's a valid cause for concern in the general case, but I don't think it applies to USPSA for three reasons:

 

1. USPSA is several orders of magnitude too niche for the sport to have a reputation at all among people who don't know about it. There's no risk of underqualified national champions giving it a bad name, because it's so obscure in the first place.

2. Even your average A or B class shooter looks like John Wick to the uninitiated viewer.

3. Specific to Revolver, I don't buy the implied argument that the revolver super squad is substantially worse relative to the field than the super squad in other divisions. Would Sailer, Nils, JJ, et al. win if they picked up Circle Stack and practiced up? Probably, but that's true of any division they shoot—it speaks to the quality of the shooter more than that of the competition. "The very top guys are shooting other divisions" isn't an argument that the divisions they aren't shooting are worth less.

 

47 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Are we there yet? No I don't think so. But IDPA might be, SC probably is too. 

 

I'm not sure I agree, again modulo participation numbers. Steel Challenge does, admittedly, have an awful lot of divisions, and probably shouldn't add more without more participation, but are you willing to call out specific Steel Challenge nationals winners, by name, as undeserving of their titles?

 

Now, the picture changes at a sub-national level, but I don't see a lot of small-division shooters bragging about wins against easy fields, either.

[shred]

On 1/23/2022 at 6:58 PM, BritinUSA said:

IPSC went for factory capacity when they introduced Production division, and it started off an equipment race with extended magazines being offered by some companies.
 

That’s why they later bought in a 15 round limit.

It was years before that in USPSA.  History, doomed to repeat, etc...

 

"Flush fit" "factory-capacity" mags used to be the rule back in the early 1990s for Limited.  Companies quickly gamed it.

 

That's the genesis of the 140mm mag rule and why the old boat-shaped STI basepads are like that.  "factory capacity" didn't work.

 

IPSC ignored that, thinking they could control it.... history, doomed to repeat, etc...

 

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

This is, indeed, not our first rodeo.

 

 

I follow your reasoning, and accept that it's a valid cause for concern in the general case, but I don't think it applies to USPSA for three reasons:

 

1. USPSA is several orders of magnitude too niche for the sport to have a reputation at all among people who don't know about it. There's no risk of underqualified national champions giving it a bad name, because it's so obscure in the first place.

2. Even your average A or B class shooter looks like John Wick to the uninitiated viewer.

3. Specific to Revolver, I don't buy the implied argument that the revolver super squad is substantially worse relative to the field than the super squad in other divisions. Would Sailer, Nils, JJ, et al. win if they picked up Circle Stack and practiced up? Probably, but that's true of any division they shoot—it speaks to the quality of the shooter more than that of the competition. "The very top guys are shooting other divisions" isn't an argument that the divisions they aren't shooting are worth less.

 

 

I'm not sure I agree, again modulo participation numbers. Steel Challenge does, admittedly, have an awful lot of divisions, and probably shouldn't add more without more participation, but are you willing to call out specific Steel Challenge nationals winners, by name, as undeserving of their titles?

 

Now, the picture changes at a sub-national level, but I don't see a lot of small-division shooters bragging about wins against easy fields, either.

 

 

 

I don't really want to call anyone out but if you want me to I probably could. Being you were Number 1 C class revolver in the nation for 3 months. I can see why you support keeping the division.

 

If you show up at SC world championship shooting a wheel gun you can be dead last and probably still be top 10 and win C class. You'll at that point be a national champion and can update your signature. 

 

Does that work?

 

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

I don't really want to call anyone out but if you want me to I probably could

 

At the 2021 WSSC, the smallest divisions were Single Stack (12 shooters, Gorka Ibanez over David Olhasso and Jessie Harrison), Production (12, Sal Luna, Nils, Shane Coley), ISR (13, Poggie, Alex Bakken, Lance Bratcher), and OSR (15, Poggie, Ryan Wagner, David Olhasso). I don't shoot Steel Challenge, but I recognize almost all of those names, and wouldn't put any of the ones I do recognize in the same category as your racing driver who couldn't back up his titles. Would you?

 

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

Being you were Number 1 C class revolver in the nation for 3 months. I can see why you support keeping the division.

 

Pretty sure we covered this in some previous go-around, but I keep that in my signature because it's a fun mathematical coincidence, not an achievement (except insofar as being able to say, with tongue in cheek, "I was briefly King of the Scrubs!" is an achievement).

 

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

If you show up at SC world championship shooting a wheel gun you can be dead last and probably still be top 10 and win C class. You'll at that point be a national champion and can update your signature. 

 

While "C-class National Champion" is parallel in terms of coincidence to "#1 C <date range>", if I included the former, people might actually think I was bragging instead of joking, which is not my intent.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Fishbreath

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, Fishbreath said:

 

 

 

 

Do you find a match with 12 shooters to be interesting? Should this stuff even be interesting? And I don't even mean interesting to outsiders. But internally are we as competitors even interested in the outcome of our own event? I can't find much to get excited about when 12 people make up a world championship. Mainly because it's not a world championship if the world isn't represented.

 

There is a World softball championship in a town a little ways north of here. 

 

 

[Bagellord]

6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

Do you find a match with 12 shooters to be interesting? Should this stuff even be interesting? And I don't even mean interesting to outsiders. But internally are we as competitors even interested in the outcome of our own event? I can't find much to get excited about when 12 people make up a world championship. Mainly because it's not a world championship if the world isn't represented.

 

There is a World softball championship in a town a little ways north of here. 

 

 

 

If I am one of those 12 competitors, I'd be interested in the outcome (if I am even interested in outcome at all). If I am one 1 of 100 competitors shooting RFPI, why would I care about revolver? They do their thing, I do mine.

[Fishbreath]

7 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Do you find a match with 12 shooters to be interesting? Should this stuff even be interesting? And I don't even mean interesting to outsiders. But internally are we as competitors even interested in the outcome of our own event? I can't find much to get excited about when 12 people make up a world championship.

 

As Bagellord said, if I'm one of the 12, I do. See also ranges with a little 12-man, three-stage local match: they're all invested in the results, too.

 

But zooming in a bit, it's less the number of shooters and more the amount of competition. Would you rather shoot against 100 shooters, all of whom you know you'll beat, or 10 shooters, who will give you a guaranteed tooth and nail battle?

 

Even one shooter on par with me suffices to get the competitive juices flowing. There are two revolver competitors who occasionally show up at local matches near me who give me a run for my money, and it's always nice seeing them. When they aren't around, I get to practice internal motivation instead and see how far up the overall I can get, or shoot a match with an eye toward good video and convincing people of the virtues of the wheelgun in USPSA.

[Racinready300ex]

 

3 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

As Bagellord said, if I'm one of the 12, I do. See also ranges with a little 12-man, three-stage local match: they're all invested in the results, too.

 

But zooming in a bit, it's less the number of shooters and more the amount of competition. Would you rather shoot against 100 shooters, all of whom you know you'll beat, or 10 shooters, who will give you a guaranteed tooth and nail battle?

 

Even one shooter on par with me suffices to get the competitive juices flowing. There are two revolver competitors who occasionally show up at local matches near me who give me a run for my money, and it's always nice seeing them. When they aren't around, I get to practice internal motivation instead and see how far up the overall I can get, or shoot a match with an eye toward good video and convincing people of the virtues of the wheelgun in USPSA.

 

I get what you're saying. It's to bad that you're so hung up on your finish. 

[Fishbreath]

I think I must have explained myself pretty poorly, if I come across as being hung up on my match placement.

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

At the 2021 WSSC, the smallest divisions were Single Stack (12 shooters, Gorka Ibanez over David Olhasso and Jessie Harrison),

keep going. further down the list you'll eventually find someone else in this thread (in 8th, lol). Foley only got me because I had some kind of bizarre gun behavior on outerlimits. Maybe something got stuck in the lugs preventing full lockup, because for several shots I was hitting 3' away from the targets.... then it decided to aim straight again after that, but i was still wary.

 

anyway, might as well just derail this thread and make it about match placement..... Personally I think having a separate ss and prod is stupid in steel challenge. I always register limited if I shoot locally.

Edited January 25, 2022 by motosapiens

[shred]

12 people is twice as many as in the Olympic 100m finals, but everyone knows Usain's gonna win, so why run?

 

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, shred said:

12 people is twice as many as in the Olympic 100m finals, but everyone knows Usain's gonna win, so why run?

 

 

I don't follow swimming, how do you end up in the finals? Are there prelim's? Or do just 12 people show up so everyone is automatically in the finals?

 

I wonder what the mentality is racing Usain. If you know deep down you can't beat him, you wont. I'd bet the guys racing him earned the opportunity and think they can win. If they don't, maybe that's why he seems un beatable. Bring it back to shooting, I'm sure lots of people want the chance to shoot against Eric because they want to be the one to beat him. 

 

In our example there aren't prelims or qualifying to narrow the field down to 12. There's just 12 guys in the whole world that want to compete at that thing and that makes them the best 12 in the game.