IDPA noob question on concealment

[-JCN-]

Hi guys, going to try my hand at IDPA for fun with carry-ish gear.

 

I read through the rulebook on the "arms outstretched" test of concealment.

 

But does that only apply to a stage start? Or does it have to be that way throughout the whole stage?

 

Like if you start with a tucked in shirt and IWB gear but on the draw pulled the shirt up and the holster and magazines were then visible through the rest of the COF would that be okay?

[MarilynMonbro]

Usually it's only checked at tier 3/4/5 matches and it's done at a certain "stage" in the match with chrono and the rest of the equipment check.

 

The scenario in your last paragraph is fine 

Edited November 20, 2020 by MarilynMonbro

[Jim Watson]

That is ok per COF.  Have to cover them up for the next stage.

[-JCN-]

Thanks guys!

 

What’s to prevent someone from having breakaway concealment (think stripper breakaway pants) that they remove on the draw and then all their reloads are open?

 

I could come up with all kinds of ridiculous gaming scenarios. Like a towel draped over my gun and magazines that I just drop at the draw. 
 

I don’t think that would be looked kindly upon, but I don’t see any rules barring removal of concealment gear during a stage?

[Reds_Dot]

32 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

Thanks guys!

 

What’s to prevent someone from having breakaway concealment (think stripper breakaway pants) that they remove on the draw and then all their reloads are open?

 

I could come up with all kinds of ridiculous gaming scenarios. Like a towel draped over my gun and magazines that I just drop at the draw. 
 

I don’t think that would be looked kindly upon, but I don’t see any rules barring removal of concealment gear during a stage?

 

While they don't outline a specific rule they do call it a concealment garment. A towel is not a garment but a tear-away shirt cpuld be. Probably still slower than just a stiff fishing vest though. 

 

Realistically this is defined by someone's "common sense" so that is open to some interpretation. As stated in the rulebook below:

 

1.2 Principles of Shooting IDPA

1.2.1 Equipment Principles

Allowed equipment will meet the following criteria:

 

A. Concealable: All equipment (except flashlights) will be placed so that it is not visible while wearing a concealment garment, with your arms extended to your sides, parallel to the ground. 

 

B. Practical: All equipment must be practical for all day concealed carry self-defense, and worn in a manner that is

appropriate for all day continuous wear.

 

1.2.2 Participation Principles

 

A. Competitors will not attempt to circumvent or compromise any stage by the use of inappropriate devices,

equipment, or techniques.

 

B. Competitors will refrain from unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions, and the use of illegal equipment.

 

C. The IDPA Rulebook is not intended to be an exhaustive description of all allowed and disallowed equipment and techniques. Shooter equipment and techniques should comply with the basic principles of IDPA and be valid in the context of a sport that is based on self-defense scenarios. A reasonable application of common sense and the IDPA Founding Concepts will be employed in determining whether a device, technique, or piece of equipment is permitted under the IDPA rules.

[SGT_Schultz]

19 hours ago, -JCN- said:

Hi guys, going to try my hand at IDPA for fun with carry-ish gear.

 

I read through the rulebook on the "arms outstretched" test of concealment.

 

But does that only apply to a stage start? Or does it have to be that way throughout the whole stage?

 

Like if you start with a tucked in shirt and IWB gear but on the draw pulled the shirt up and the holster and magazines were then visible through the rest of the COF would that be okay?

 

Why are you overthinking this?

 

Either wear a silly vest like most of them do, or just wear your clothes the way you conceal when you go about your daily life (which is what I do).

 

Skill > gaming tricks

 

OBTW, no, you can't do what you describe in your last sentence.  When concealment is required, which it always is except when the stage description says otherwise, the stuff on your belt must be concealed the entire time you're shooting the stage.  Otherwise, you get a procedural (3 sec penalty) or maybe a Flagrant Penalty (+10 seconds) instead if you've been warned before or it appears you're deliberately doing something to violate the rules.

Edited November 21, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[GOF]

3 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

+1 from a IDPA SO. Unless otherwise specified in the COF description, concealment applies to both the gun and ammo carriers that will be used during the COF.

 

 

Why are you overthinking this?

 

Either wear a silly vest like most of them do, or just wear your clothes the way you conceal when you go about your daily life (which is what I do).

 

Skill > gaming tricks

 

OBTW, no, you can't do what you describe in your last sentence.  When concealment is required, which it always is except when the stage description says otherwise, the stuff on your belt must be concealed the entire time you're shooting the stage.  Otherwise, you get a procedural (3 sec penalty) or maybe a Flagrant Penalty (+10 seconds) instead if you've been warned before or it appears you're deliberately doing something to violate the rules.

 

[Diver123]

9 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

OBTW, no, you can't do what you describe in your last sentence.  When concealment is required, which it always is except when the stage description says otherwise, the stuff on your belt must be concealed the entire time you're shooting the stage.  Otherwise, you get a procedural (3 sec penalty) or maybe a Flagrant Penalty (+10 seconds) instead if you've been warned before or it appears you're deliberately doing something to violate the rules.

 Your statement is not accurate. If my vest gets snagged on my mag and stays back the whole time I am shooting I do not get a PE or any other penalty. If you wear a t-shirt and start with it over your gear and during the coarse of fire you can see a mag there is no penalty. No where does it say or suggest that you must pull your shirt back down and make sure your mags are no longer showing. You get a PE for not having a concealment garment. You dont get a PE for well I think your mags were showing while shooting. 

[-JCN-]

10 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Why are you overthinking this?

 

Either wear a silly vest like most of them do, or just wear your clothes the way you conceal when you go about your daily life (which is what I do).

 

Skill > gaming tricks

 

OBTW, no, you can't do what you describe in your last sentence.  When concealment is required, which it always is except when the stage description says otherwise, the stuff on your belt must be concealed the entire time you're shooting the stage.  Otherwise, you get a procedural (3 sec penalty) or maybe a Flagrant Penalty (+10 seconds) instead if you've been warned before or it appears you're deliberately doing something to violate the rules.

I’m an “M” in USPSA.  I can do sub-second concealed carry draws to center mass. 
 

But I prefer reloading from an open magazine pouch and not having to separately sweep a T-shirt for that. 
 

I don’t even carry a reload normally so not interested in learning a new skill that’s not applicable to anything (fishing vests). 
 

Currently I use a modified concealed draw when I have to reload in the future. It entails tucking the shirt behind the magazine on the draw so it’s exposed. But that kind of draw will NEVER be used in a civilian gunfight. 
 

You’re grumpy and judgmental. I’m fine with concealed draws like the way I normally carry. But for these types of games I have to do something other than what I normally do, which is tuck the shirt. 
 

So yes, I’m looking to game it so I can use my standard concealed draw and not have to fumble with the magazine. 

[SGT_Schultz]

9 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

I’m an “M” in USPSA.  I can do sub-second concealed carry draws to center mass. 
 

But I prefer reloading from an open magazine pouch and not having to separately sweep a T-shirt for that. 
 

I don’t even carry a reload normally so not interested in learning a new skill that’s not applicable to anything (fishing vests). 
 

Currently I use a modified concealed draw when I have to reload in the future. It entails tucking the shirt behind the magazine on the draw so it’s exposed. But that kind of draw will NEVER be used in a civilian gunfight. 
 

You’re grumpy and judgmental. I’m fine with concealed draws like the way I normally carry. But for these types of games I have to do something other than what I normally do, which is tuck the shirt. 
 

So yes, I’m looking to game it so I can use my standard concealed draw and not have to fumble with the magazine. 

 

Well, I guess you'll enjoy being ten seconds down from everyone else.

 

M or no M.....................

 

And no, I'm neither grumpy nor judgemental.  I play by the rules, something you seem to think you're exempt from.

Edited November 22, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[-JCN-]

2 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Well, I guess you'll enjoy being ten seconds down from everyone else.

 

M or no M.....................

 

And no, I'm neither grumpy nor judgemental.  I play by the rules, something you seem to think you're exempt from.

Grumpy, judgmental and wrong. 
 

You don’t have to conceal mags after the stage starts. 
 

What would the point of that be?

 

Hey, I’m in a firefight and shooting... but I don’t want you to see that I have a spare magazine!!!!!!

[-JCN-]

5 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

And no, I'm neither grumpy nor judgemental.  I play by the rules, something you seem to think you're exempt from.

Some people are so fixated on “rules” that they let life pass them by. 
 

The match director had already told me shirt showing mags after start is fine and also allows AIWB starts because that’s the way a lot of people actually carry. 
 

So I’m exempt from the rules you play by but not because I’m a loose cannon. But maybe because the rules you play aren’t actually applicable to carry gear. 
 

That’s actually what I’m trying to do. Make it more like a carry draw. And it’s kosher with the MD. 

[SGT_Schultz]

6 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

Some people are so fixated on “rules” that they let life pass them by. 
 

The match director had already told me shirt showing mags after start is fine and also allows AIWB starts because that’s the way a lot of people actually carry. 
 

So I’m exempt from the rules you play by but not because I’m a loose cannon. But maybe because the rules you play aren’t actually applicable to carry gear. 
 

That’s actually what I’m trying to do. Make it more like a carry draw. And it’s kosher with the MD. 

So it's not an IDPA match

 

Why are you in the IDPA forum then?

Edited November 22, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[Ontos]

29 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

Some people are so fixated on “rules” that they let life pass them by. 
 

The match director had already told me shirt showing mags after start is fine and also allows AIWB starts because that’s the way a lot of people actually carry. 
 

So I’m exempt from the rules you play by but not because I’m a loose cannon. But maybe because the rules you play aren’t actually applicable to carry gear. 
 

That’s actually what I’m trying to do. Make it more like a carry draw. And it’s kosher with the MD. 

While I personally think it’s a silly rule, AIWB isn’t legal in IDPA. If you’re doing that, it’s not an IDPA match. 

[-JCN-]

25 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

So it's not an IDPA match

 

Why are you in the IDPA forum then?

So narrowly minded and concrete. You probably work in a field that’s very black and white with defined variables, I’d guess. 

 

3 minutes ago, Ontos said:

While I personally think it’s a silly rule, AIWB isn’t legal in IDPA. If you’re doing that, it’s not an IDPA match. 

 

Semantics. 

 

If all the targets and rules are IDPA except “extra” divisions are offered to better accommodate more types of shooters, then is the match IDPA except for the “extra” divisions?

 

Or does the presence of someone with a holster in front of their hip bone automatically make the BUG shooter not shooting an IDPA match?

 

And if I wind up liking IDPA style matches and want to run a larger event with my holster moved over 6 inches... then the same questions still apply. I’m still not wearing a super starched fishing vest. 

 

[-JCN-]

11 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

When concealment is required, which it always is except when the stage description says otherwise, the stuff on your belt must be concealed the entire time you're shooting the stage. 

Answer me this. In a “real” IDPA match, are you right or are you wrong with this statement of your opinion? 
 

Do you reload the gun under your shirt so nobody can see your magazine pouches?

 

.

Edited November 22, 2020 by -JCN-

[Ontos]

4 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

So narrowly minded and concrete. You probably work in a field that’s very black and white with defined variables, I’d guess. 

 

 

Semantics. 

 

If all the targets and rules are IDPA except “extra” divisions are offered to better accommodate more types of shooters, then is the match IDPA except for the “extra” divisions?

 

Or does the presence of someone with a holster in front of their hip bone automatically make the BUG shooter not shooting an IDPA match?

 

And if I wind up liking IDPA style matches and want to run a larger event with my holster moved over 6 inches... then the same questions still apply. I’m still not wearing a super starched fishing vest. 

 

Yeah, because The rules make the game.

 

It’s like having a USPSA match where people are running 15 rounds in Production or comps in Carry Optics.  I mean, that’s cool and everything but you’re now running an outlaw match so Classifiers and match performance shouldn’t carry over. 
 

I carry AIWB, too, but I can’t run that way in an IDPA match and expect it to count for score. 

[GrumpyOne]

This is an interesting thread, it would be a shame to have to lock it because it became personal.

 

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[-JCN-]

1 hour ago, GrumpyOne said:

This is an interesting thread, it would be a shame to have to lock it because it became personal.

 

Posting Guidelines

Attitude
Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful.
No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter.
Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable.
No trolling. No alternate accounts.

Okay, I’ll dial it back. I was over the line, sorry. 

 

9 hours ago, Ontos said:

Yeah, because The rules make the game.

 

It’s like having a USPSA match where people are running 15 rounds in Production or comps in Carry Optics.  I mean, that’s cool and everything but you’re now running an outlaw match so Classifiers and match performance shouldn’t carry over. 
 

I carry AIWB, too, but I can’t run that way in an IDPA match and expect it to count for score. 

It’s a little different in my mind. In your scenario, you couldn’t call it “Carry Optics” with a change from the rule set. But if you had a separate group called “Carry Optics with Comps” then does that disqualify all the traditional divisions competing under the strict USPSA rules?
 

What this match is doing is that it has a completely separate AIWB group that doesn’t mix with the traditional groups. 
 

So IMO it’s an IDPA match with IDPA divisions PLUS a non-IDPA division with AIWB allowed. 
 

IMO that makes the other rules still under the traditional judgement of IDPA. 
 

And to answer the question, I’m asking in the IDPA forum because I can easily NOT run AIWB and just run a true division but my concealment questions still are the same...

 

To clarify: does concealment only apply to the start? I would imagine it would have to because concealment doesn’t have to cover your gear if you lift arms above head (just outstretched). 
 

And I have a very hard time believing Schultz that your gear has to be concealed the entire stage because it’s not concealed when you get to it. And if you have two pouches on your belt next to each other, you’re unconcealing gear you’re not actively using when you get to one pouch you expose the other. 
 

It’s pretty vague in the rules and leaves it to “intent and sportsmanship” which is what I’m trying to see what is and isn’t kosher. 

 

 

[Jim Watson]

11 hours ago, -JCN- said:

The match director had already told me shirt showing mags after start is fine and also allows AIWB starts because that’s the way a lot of people actually carry. 

Then the match director is not directing an IDPA match; holster placement is specifically defined in IDPA rules, and AIWB does not comply.

That said, our leader had exactly the same attitude and policy yesterday, so I am not surprised.

 

On the other side, I have not seen anybody penalized or "counseled" for letting his magazines and (empty) holster show after the start.  Shirttail concealment is getting more common.   

[Ontos]

3 hours ago, -JCN- said:

Okay, I’ll dial it back. I was over the line, sorry. 

 

It’s a little different in my mind. In your scenario, you couldn’t call it “Carry Optics” with a change from the rule set. But if you had a separate group called “Carry Optics with Comps” then does that disqualify all the traditional divisions competing under the strict USPSA rules?
 

What this match is doing is that it has a completely separate AIWB group that doesn’t mix with the traditional groups. 
 

So IMO it’s an IDPA match with IDPA divisions PLUS a non-IDPA division with AIWB allowed. 
 

IMO that makes the other rules still under the traditional judgement of IDPA. 
 

And to answer the question, I’m asking in the IDPA forum because I can easily NOT run AIWB and just run a true division but my concealment questions still are the same...

 

To clarify: does concealment only apply to the start? I would imagine it would have to because concealment doesn’t have to cover your gear if you lift arms above head (just outstretched). 
 

And I have a very hard time believing Schultz that your gear has to be concealed the entire stage because it’s not concealed when you get to it. And if you have two pouches on your belt next to each other, you’re unconcealing gear you’re not actively using when you get to one pouch you expose the other. 
 

It’s pretty vague in the rules and leaves it to “intent and sportsmanship” which is what I’m trying to see what is and isn’t kosher. 

 

 

I see where you’re coming from and IDPA has allowances for a “Specialty Division”, unfortunately holster position still has to comply with IDPA rules so it’s not really an IDPA match at that point. Whenever you’re dealing with a formal competition which has rules, semantics are important. 
 

Here are the concealment rules right from the rule book.  There’s nothing about your magazine carrier being concealed during the actual COF so theoretically at the beep there wouldn’t be a problem with sweeping back a cover garment behind mag carriers other than the fact it takes more time than its worth. 
 

Your idea about using a towel or something that drops away would most likely run afoul of the fact it’s not a “garment”. In the same way I doubt it would fly if someone just stripped off their vest when the timer sounds. 
 

Why do you think this would be advantageous enough to game so hard? I mean, I’m all about finding the absolute edge of the rules, I just don’t see where there’s any benefit to be had. 

[-JCN-]

1 hour ago, Ontos said:

I see where you’re coming from and IDPA has allowances for a “Specialty Division”, unfortunately holster position still has to comply with IDPA rules so it’s not really an IDPA match at that point. Whenever you’re dealing with a formal competition which has rules, semantics are important. 
 

Here are the concealment rules right from the rule book.  There’s nothing about your magazine carrier being concealed during the actual COF so theoretically at the beep there wouldn’t be a problem with sweeping back a cover garment behind mag carriers other than the fact it takes more time than its worth. 
 

Your idea about using a towel or something that drops away would most likely run afoul of the fact it’s not a “garment”. In the same way I doubt it would fly if someone just stripped off their vest when the timer sounds. 
 

Why do you think this would be advantageous enough to game so hard? I mean, I’m all about finding the absolute edge of the rules, I just don’t see where there’s any benefit to be had. 

It’s not necessarily that it would be advantageous over a vest to do it that way. Watching national champion videos, vests are probably the way to go for absolute speed. But they are ridiculous from a spirit of the sport standpoint watching how stiff those “concealment garments” are.

 

I’m looking for a setup that essentially doesn’t change my reloading stroke compared to USPSA. I’m fine with concealed draws, but concealed mag changes I do not care to practice as a separate muscle memory skill. 
 

So I’m not looking to game for absolute performance. I’m just looking to game so I don’t have to add additional skills that IMO don’t add additional practical skill (concealed mag changes). 
 

I also don’t see why you couldn’t just strip off your vest at the draw. If we are talking about self defense scenario, it really doesn’t matter to conceal anything once your gun is drawn. So once you draw the gun, why do you need concealment (besides “it’s the rules!”)

Edited November 22, 2020 by -JCN-

[Ontos]

1 hour ago, -JCN- said:

It’s not necessarily that it would be advantageous over a vest to do it that way. Watching national champion videos, vests are probably the way to go for absolute speed. But they are ridiculous from a spirit of the sport standpoint watching how stiff those “concealment garments” are.

 

I’m looking for a setup that essentially doesn’t change my reloading stroke compared to USPSA. I’m fine with concealed draws, but concealed mag changes I do not care to practice as a separate muscle memory skill. 
 

So I’m not looking to game for absolute performance. I’m just looking to game so I don’t have to add additional skills that IMO don’t add additional practical skill (concealed mag changes). 
 

I also don’t see why you couldn’t just strip off your vest at the draw. If we are talking about self defense scenario, it really doesn’t matter to conceal anything once your gun is drawn. So once you draw the gun, why do you need concealment (besides “it’s the rules!”)

Unless you’re using concealed carry gear in USPSA already that ship has already sailed.

 

If you’re running a competitive belt, holster and mag carrier in Production none of that will be legal in IDPA anyways. I’m a USPSA GM and IDPA MA (although I rarely shoot IDPA), so I just have two different sets of gear. Going back and forth with gear is pretty trivial compared to all the other differences between games. 

[-JCN-]

5 hours ago, Ontos said:

Unless you’re using concealed carry gear in USPSA already that ship has already sailed.

 

If you’re running a competitive belt, holster and mag carrier in Production none of that will be legal in IDPA anyways. I’m a USPSA GM and IDPA MA (although I rarely shoot IDPA), so I just have two different sets of gear. Going back and forth with gear is pretty trivial compared to all the other differences between games. 

Oh for sure running different gear and belts. I was more referencing a full speed mag change versus having to sweep clothes away from the mag before getting to it. I don’t want to build inefficiency into my normal USPSA mag change stroke. 
 

This is what I was trying to do:

 

It’s gamey because it’s a short sweatshirt tucked underneath the bottom of the holster so it passes coverage test. But I can use the pocket to get a better handle on the garment and when I pull it up, it rolls under itself... staying out of the way of the magazine for reload. 
 

It’s gamey, but I don’t think I lose a lot compared to a vest and I don’t have to add extra mental processing into my magazine grab. 
 

And from AIWB in NON-IDPA concealment wink, wink. It works even better. Rolled up and out of the way. 
 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by -JCN-

[MHicks]

With the short sweatshirt do you have to carefully tuck it under the holster and mag carrier because it will barely legally cover your gear if you don't move. Or can you pull it down and walk around and it covers the gear.