How to pick first gun? CZ Shadow 2 vs Sig P320 X5 Legion

[matto6]

I know, "The gun doesn't matter.  Use the one you have!"  But I'm new and didn't own a gun, so I bought two!

When I first held the guns, I thought I liked the Sig better.  Everything is easier to operate - grip angle, racking the slide, mag release, slide release. It all feels better.

Then I shot them (slow fire at paper) and I concluded I liked the Shadow 2 better.  The recoil impulse felt better, the trigger felt better, etc.

But then I started learning how to properly grip the gun (stopped grabbing it like a monkey grabs a hammer, as Bob Vogel says.. search youtube) and I realized that the Sig points more naturally for me.   The deep inset on the Shadow 2 grip makes the gun always pointing high after holster draw.  I have to train myself to tip it down more than I think I should.  

I'd like to stop going back and forth and pick one to focus on for a while.  The question is - which factors should I consider to choose which one to pick?   I like certain things about each better, but I'm too new to even know what's important.  Thoughts?  Flip a coin and move on?

Advice welcome!

Edited November 19, 2020 by matto6

[Eric_T]

They are both great guns.  I have a Shadow 2 myself.  It wasn't a practical decision, because I want to shoot IDPA from time to time, and the S2 is not legal in IDPA (too heavy), but I just really like the Shadow and decided to go with a gun that I'm excited about shooting and training with.  I'd suggest you do the same, go with whichever one lights a bigger spark in your gut.  Sounds like the X5 might fit you better out of the box, but with training you'll be able to adapt to either one, most likely.

[KlausN]

Pick the one which fits your hand “better”.  You already said the sig points more naturally for you therefore the only reasons not to use it would be that the CZ makes you happier and you would practice more with the CZ. Lastly make sure the gun fits e.g. my wife’s Walther’s beaver tail hits my thumb and I get sore after less than 50 rounds.  I have a Sig 226 which cuts into the web of my hand after a few 100 rounds...  I shoot my Tanfo for thousands of rounds during a 5 day training and had no issues. Similar issues can happen during dry fire.  Pick the gun you like better if it fits your hand. 

[B_RAD]

On 11/18/2020 at 7:00 PM, matto6 said:

I know, "The gun doesn't matter.  Use the one you have!"  But I'm new and didn't own a gun, so I bought two!

When I first held the guns, I thought I liked the Sig better.  Everything is easier to operate - grip angle, racking the slide, mag release, slide release. It all feels better.

Then I shot them (slow fire at paper) and I concluded I liked the Shadow 2 better.  The recoil impulse felt better, the trigger felt better, etc.

But then I started learning how to properly grip the gun (stopped grabbing it like a monkey grabs a hammer, as Bob Vogel says.. search youtube) and I realized that the Sig points more naturally for me.   The deep inset on the Shadow 2 grip makes the gun always pointing high after holster draw.  I have to train myself to tip it down more than I think I should.  

I'd like to stop going back and forth and pick one to focus on for a while.  The question is - which factors should I consider to choose which one to pick?   I like certain things about each better, but I'm too new to even know what's important.  Thoughts?  Flip a coin and move on?

Advice welcome!

How it feels at slow fire doesn't matter. 

 

How it feels at rapid fire doesn't matter. 

 

Pointing high means you're not used to it. With time it will point fine. 

 

Be careful when you ask for opinions. You're mosty just gonna get people telling you what they chose. 

 

Flip a coin, go with your gut, let a stranger pick.... Go with one. Sell the other. Never try another gun. Practice. You'll be gtg!

 

 

Or.......get on the every changing marry go round of switching.  Like a lot of people do. 

[IHAVEGAS]

My Shadow 2 had me duck hunting on the draw, none of my other guns do (the old Glocks did also) . Sold the S2 rather than adapting to it and then being forced to re-adapt when I shot something else. 

[cheby]

On 11/27/2020 at 9:45 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

My Shadow 2 had me duck hunting on the draw, none of my other guns do (the old Glocks did also) . 

What do you mean by that?

[IHAVEGAS]

7 hours ago, cheby said:

What do you mean by that?

 

After the draw I had to correct downward. 

[shred]

Shoot the one you like to shoot more.  At this point in your shooing career, nothing else really matters.

 

[Boomstick303]

On 11/18/2020 at 6:00 PM, matto6 said:

The deep inset on the Shadow 2 grip makes the gun always pointing high after holster draw. 

 

I would not base the decision to use any gun on this factor. Any gun you buy will have a phase of learning how to index that particular gun. @B_RAD is right in, choose one and get good with it. Training is all that matters as long as the equipment is acceptable and both of those pistols are two of the most commonly used in USPSA. 

[matto6]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Shoot the one you like to shoot more.  At this point in your shooing career, nothing else really matters.

Agreed.   And the answer is - none of the above.   I picked up a Shadow 1 and love it.  Done.   

I also picked up a P-01 and that feels fantastic as well.   I'll be selling the Legion and Shadow 2.

 

Now to learn how to actually shoot.   

Edited November 29, 2020 by matto6

[B_RAD]

7 minutes ago, matto6 said:

Agreed.   And the answer is - none of the above.   I picked up a Shadow 1 and love it.  Done.   

I'll be selling the Legion and Shadow 2.

 

Now to learn how to actually shoot.   

Get some!

 

[IHAVEGAS]

45 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Any gun you buy will have a phase of learning how to index that particular gun.

 

That is not my experience.

Could very well be that I learned using a sort of typical frame geometry, so guns which mimic that geometry (1911's , 2011's, Tanfo's, Shadow 1) feel as if they point naturally. 

[matto6]

It wasn't just about indexing naturally.    It puts my strong hand in a less comfortable position.

 

I really don't get the grip on the shadow 2.  Everyone claims it's cut higher up so you can grip the gun higher.   This is not true at all.  The top of the grip is simply cut further forward.   This forward cut does nothing to get your hand up higher.   

 

What the forward cut does do is put less material at one of the important points for opposing recoil.   This forces you to cram the top portion of your hand forward into that cutout, to create the pressure you need.   This results in your hand being tipped significantly further forward, into a glock-like grip angle (or even more severe).

 

It seems to work for a lot of people.  But to me it just felt weird, and a complete deviation from what was great about the 75 grip.




 

Edited November 29, 2020 by matto6

[B_RAD]

It's all in y'all's mind. 

 

Natural pointing is not a real thing. You've learned to point what your think you point "naturally". You can learn to point something different.

 

If it feels off, that's because you've got used to something. Doing something different is gonna feel off, wrong, or whatever. 

 

If you fall within the normal range of hand size, which is a large range but most people do, most anything will work for you. If you you'll get out of your own way. 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by B_RAD

[IHAVEGAS]

 

35 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Natural pointing is not a real thing. You've learned to point what your think you point "naturally". You can learn to point something different.

 

You can, but then you will be wrong for the guns that point 'naturally' for you before relearning. 

 

For me it is just a whole lot easier to stay away from the original frame Glocks and Shadow 2. 

[cheby]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

That is not my experience.

Could very well be that I learned using a sort of typical frame geometry, so guns which mimic that geometry (1911's , 2011's, Tanfo's, Shadow 1) feel as if they point naturally. 

I shot shadow 2 for 2 years.  I liked it.  Then I switched to limited because Production was dying rapidly. I am shooting 2011 and like it a lot.

Recently I decided to double down with CO and got a CO slide for my shadow 2. As of right now I hate the feel, the weight distribution, and the recoil of shadow 2. It's good but compared to my 2011:

1. It's nose heavy.  The weight distribution is radically different. I played with various recoil springs and could not find anything I liked. 

2. It does point higher and even with 3 weeks of daily dry fire my index is not where I want it to be. I did get my reloads to where they were during my production time..

3. What is worse, when I go back to my 2011, the index with 2011 is now off as well and I start missing reloads. 

4. Shadow 2 is an excellent gun. However to me, the bottom line is I can't switch between shadow 2 and 2011 easily. For that reason I am thinking of getting a x5 legion for my CO (And Production) games. Legion has the same feel as 2011 and it is the deciding factor to me.

[shred]

FWIW, for me the large-frame Tanfos are closest in feel to a 1911/2011, even though they are very different shapes.

 

[cheby]

1 hour ago, shred said:

FWIW, for me the large-frame Tanfos are closest in feel to a 1911/2011, even though they are very different shapes.

 

Yeah,  I've heard about that. I need to check it out as well.  The legion is logically easier I think

[cnote]

I would do a bunch of bill drills and el prez with both on the timer and let the times and the hits or HF make the decision

[matto6]

For what it's worth, I kept shooting them both and came to the conclusion that while the CZ grip shape feels great in the store, it's not great for my hand in terms of actually controlling the gun.   

What I learned is that I like (not love) the grip on the Legion.  But I love the grip on my new Beretta LTT Elite 92.  There's so much more room on the grip for my support hand.  It's the gun I have a warm fuzzy feeling with and I'll be using it to learn from here on out.

So I'm selling both CZ's (Shadow 2 and CZ Custom Shadow 1).   I can't post yet in the classifieds section until I post 25 more times though

[KlausN]

Matto06, I took a very similar “journey’ but arrived at a different conclusion. I noticed the same difference in “natural” aim between the shadow2, the shadow 1 and the Beretta LTT.  The S1 pointed more natural than the S2 and the LTT was the best. I just don’t like the position of the Beretta mag release and how stiff it is.  The Tanfoglio LF Limited is my absolute favorite but due to age, I switched to CO and I have too much money sunk into my CZs therefore I will just stick with it until the point in the direction where i need them to point. 1000s of draws later, it is getting slowly better but no matter what, natural aim exists at least for me and the Tanfoglio, LTT and 1911 point easier for me.  I am Just done spending money to buy improvement and decided maybe, just maybe practice will help.  Lot less fun than buying stuff but perpetual C class is no fun either

[Lior]

Both guns are very good despite having very different design philosophies. To answer your question on which one will suit a beginner better, I have no idea. I've shot both and compete with the Shadow 2 because I was already heavily invested in CZ guns. But I'd be quite content with a P320 Legion too.

[Uomu]

I like more the Shadow 2, due its better weight distribution, lower bore axis and smoother trigerr.

[JDIllon]

As said before, both are good guns!! But the Shadow 2 is a great gun!!! I now shoot all CZs, I've tried many other guns including the Legion. The CZs just keep on shooting when many of the others are spending time tuning ( trying to get them to run ) LOL! Shoot both before you buy!! and go with the one that feels best to you.  JD

[Fasthenk65]

had both liked both sold the legion,,,