Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 70
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

18 hours ago, Lior said:

They are just offering this series of three different guns to prepare us for the cost of the CzechMate 2!


I hope the CM2 actually has some substantial changes. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Tok36 said:

https://www.czub.cz/en/firearms-and-products-family/cz-ts-2#property

 

 

In the animation it looks like the CZ 75 two sided Trigger Bar Spring is included. That is odd, i wonder if the TS 2 Trigger Bar still rides in a slot in the side of the frame.

 

 

TS 2 anim 1.jpg

 

Good catch.  Yeah that is odd....wonder if new part or whether the CZ75/Shadow 2 one now fits in that frame/well.

Edited by MoRivera
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Tok36 said:

https://www.czub.cz/en/firearms-and-products-family/cz-ts-2#property

 

 

In the animation it looks like the CZ 75 two sided Trigger Bar Spring is included. That is odd, i wonder if the TS 2 Trigger Bar still rides in a slot in the side of the frame.

 

 

TS 2 anim 1.jpg

That’s a single side trigger bar. So curious why the spring

Edited by eerw
B
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah that's what I mean, I'm trying to remember when I had a TS Blue, I don't think it had a lifter spring since it's not double-action.  So that's why it was strange to see it in these CG-animated exploded views.

 

 

Here's the older TS schematic....

 

CZ-75-TS--CZ-SPARE.PARTS_web.png.987ade0ec43f16d5ab06bb1f079d7648.png

 

 

As Tok36 alluded to, perhaps this new trigger bar does not ride in a slot in the frame like the older ones, hence the need for the lifter spring.

 

Edited by MoRivera
Link to post
Share on other sites

Does the spring have any impact on the trigger reset? Maybe they found it gives a better trigger with that spring in there. Or they just decided it's easier to make the different trigger bar and not have to do additional milling inside the frame. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, regor said:

Does the spring have any impact on the trigger reset? Maybe they found it gives a better trigger with that spring in there. Or they just decided it's easier to make the different trigger bar and not have to do additional milling inside the frame. 

It could potentially increase the upward Trigger Bar tension. This could change the feel of the reset. The orignal Tac Sport uses the Trigger Return Spring as a Trigger Bar Spring. So the Tac Sport TRS has two jobs.

 

The catch that i see using a second TRS, is that the Tac Sport Trigger Bar rides in a dedicated slot inside the frame. This makes the TS Trigger Bar more flush with the inside of the frame. This means that the bottem of the Trigger Bar is not accessible for the spring to act on it in the same way as a CZ 75. I believe that either the spring or the TS Trigger Bar would require modification for this to work. Adding the standard 75 Trigger Bar Spring may also reduce the interior space inside the frame and conflict with the magazine.

 

 

Edited by Tok36
Spelling
Link to post
Share on other sites

I did some testing, with the current TS frame and a 2 sided CZ 75 Trigger Bar Spring, the spring blocks the magazine from seating. Now they could have changed the new TS frame, but I believe that if they wanted to add a second spring to act on the TS Trigger Bar, the spring would be positioned differently than the way it is shown in the animation. I believe that they would also remove the unused side of the Trigger Bar Spring to reduce the interior space that it takes up. This leads me to believe, that this is the product of a mistake on the animators part.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/20/2020 at 3:03 AM, FALAR said:

I never understood the argument that the bull barrel is heavier.  To make room for the thicker barrel, material is removed from the slide.

 

I compared the weight of my Stock III and Limited Custom.  Both upper assemblies are within a few tenths of an oz of each other, just one has more in the barrel and the other the slide.

 

Now if you're in the "less slide mass is better camp" then the bull barrel dies give you that----same weight up front but with a lighter slide.

Exactly, this is also a valid point - to the advantage of the bull barrel. You want the weight to be stationary like in the barrel, the moving weight in the slide actually adds to recoil. So less weight in the slide and more weight in the front of the barrel means win-win for softer recoil and less muzzle flip. 

 

Less slide mass IS better for recoil. A heavy slide feeds better though and is less sensitive for dirt etc. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, mrd said:

Exactly, this is also a valid point - to the advantage of the bull barrel. You want the weight to be stationary like in the barrel, the moving weight in the slide actually adds to recoil. So less weight in the slide and more weight in the front of the barrel means win-win for softer recoil and less muzzle flip. 

 

Less slide mass IS better for recoil. A heavy slide feeds better though and is less sensitive for dirt etc. 

 

Not sure about that.

On the way back, F=M*A, so you can have less mass and more speed or more mass and less speed but you have to counteract the same force either way. 

 

For dip on slide closure I think the you are right. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/24/2020 at 3:01 AM, mrd said:

Exactly, this is also a valid point - to the advantage of the bull barrel. You want the weight to be stationary like in the barrel, the moving weight in the slide actually adds to recoil. So less weight in the slide and more weight in the front of the barrel means win-win for softer recoil and less muzzle flip. 

 

Less slide mass IS better for recoil. A heavy slide feeds better though and is less sensitive for dirt etc. 

 

 

I'm not near my notes right now but I think the Stock III slide is 13.2oz (S2 is 13.7, 1911 in .45 is also 13.2) while the Limited Custom was 12.3 (almost identical to S1 or SP-01).  The TSO slide is also 13.7 if I remember right, the extra length being offset by the slimmer SP-01 profile in comparison to a S2.  I would expect this new gun to have a slide at 14oz.

 

I'm obsessed with frame, complete upper, barrel, and slide weights.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/24/2020 at 11:43 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Not sure about that.

On the way back, F=M*A, so you can have less mass and more speed or more mass and less speed but you have to counteract the same force either way. 

 

For dip on slide closure I think the you are right. 

 

F=M*A is less than half the truth. First, muzzle flip is a factor of the ratio between the moving force of the slide AND the stationary mass of the barrel and frame. Second, the mass of the slide has to be balanced with matching springs for optimal recoil reduction, you seem to have assumed the spring is constant. 

 

Just look at all limited guns. Do you see any that are made with heavier slides? No, the race guns have slide cuts and even slides that are shortened, to make the moving mass less. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, mrd said:

 

F=M*A is less than half the truth. First, muzzle flip is a factor of the ratio between the moving force of the slide AND the stationary mass of the barrel and frame. Second, the mass of the slide has to be balanced with matching springs for optimal recoil reduction, you seem to have assumed the spring is constant. 

 

Just look at all limited guns. Do you see any that are made with heavier slides? No, the race guns have slide cuts and even slides that are shortened, to make the moving mass less. 

In your formula you did not take into account the losses due to friction, heat differences and a million other small factors.😀😉

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, yigal said:

In your formula you did not take into account the losses due to friction, heat differences and a million other small factors.😀😉

 

That comes from engineering & physics classes. There are always a long string of minute influences that tend to zero for all practical purposes.

 

When you weigh yourself on a scale you likely do not factor in the variance of weight do to the relative position of the moon, for example. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, mrd said:

 

 

 

Just look at all limited guns. Do you see any that are made with heavier slides? No, the race guns have slide cuts and even slides that are shortened, to make the moving mass less. 

 

You seem determined to confuse what works for muzzle dip (light slides, reduced weight recoil springs) with a somewhat magical reduction in recoil. There is no free lunch, forces must balance. 

 

It is interesting to consider barrel weight's effect on felt recoil. While slide to barrel is initially locked the barrel should effectively act as a slide weight and then the barrel momentum should transfer to the frame through the barrel link & etc. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

That comes from engineering & physics classes. There are always a long string of minute influences that tend to zero for all practical purposes.

 

When you weigh yourself on a scale you likely do not factor in the variance of weight do to the relative position of the moon, for example. 

i forgot the moon🙉🙉🙉

39 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

You seem determined to confuse what works for muzzle dip (light slides, reduced weight recoil springs) with a somewhat magical reduction in recoil. There is no free lunch, forces must balance. 

 

It is interesting to consider barrel weight's effect on felt recoil. While slide to barrel is initially locked the barrel should effectively act as a slide weight and then the barrel momentum should transfer to the frame through the barrel link & etc. 

 

 

of coarse .👍

The laws of physics have not changed. M1V1=M2V2

You adjust the equipment to suit you. What's good for you does not have to fit someone else.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

You seem determined to confuse what works for muzzle dip (light slides, reduced weight recoil springs) with a somewhat magical reduction in recoil. There is no free lunch, forces must balance. 

 

It is interesting to consider barrel weight's effect on felt recoil. While slide to barrel is initially locked the barrel should effectively act as a slide weight and then the barrel momentum should transfer to the frame through the barrel link & etc. 

 

 

 

You're right, I do consider the muzzle dip as part of the recoil impulse. I think of recoil more in the terms of how much the sight picture is disturbed than how much force is transfered into the shooter. Sorry if this was cause for confusement, english is not my native language. 

 

18 hours ago, yigal said:

In your formula you did not take into account the losses due to friction, heat differences and a million other small factors.😀😉

 

No, I mostly just wanted to account for the stationary mass working to stabilize the gun and counter-acting on the moving mass of the slide. If you think I'm nitpicking, well sure, but was I really first to do so? I said coming into the discussion that the practical differences were small, I'm well aware they are. 

 

Let's keep it nice, civil and respectful. Thanks.

Edited by mrd
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, mrd said:

 

You're right, I do consider the muzzle dip as part of the recoil impulse. I think of recoil more in the terms of how much the sight picture is disturbed than how much force is transfered into the shooter. Sorry if this was cause for confusement, english is not my native language. 

 

 

No, I mostly just wanted to account for the stationary mass working to stabilize the gun and counter-acting on the moving mass of the slide. If you think I'm nitpicking, well sure, but was I really first to do so? I said coming into the discussion that the practical differences were small, I'm well aware they are. 

 

Let's keep it nice, civil and respectful. Thanks.

👍

I too many years ago did the calculations about most things in this sport.

and english is not my native language too.😉

Link to post
Share on other sites

The formula mentioned was F=ma. Assuming this is the correct formula to use the force acting on the slide is the projectile exiting or the propellant “pushing” the projectile and therefore the slide.

assuming F is constant the product of ma needs to equal F. Reducing the mass m should therefore increase the acceleration a.  a is the dv/ dt ?  dv change in velocity per time interval dt.  This might be important during the negative acceleration when the slide has to slow down before hitting the slide stop.  The time the slide has to decelerate might be a large influence on felt recoil. Allowing the slide more time to slow down using the recoil and hammer spring during a longer time (distance) and a heavier non sprung mass (frame and barrel) should make the recoil impulse more pleasant. 
Decreasing the slide mass below a certain amount might have a negative effect as a lighter slide should travel faster.  Now I get into territory where the school stuff was too long ago but somewhere in one of the formulas I recall the velocity being squared?

Also a light slide will accelerate faster and to a higher velocity going back forward especially when propelled by a heavy recoil spring which on the way back might be good but on the way forward will cause muzzle dip. 
Anyone with more recent physics knowledge please add or correct those assumptions. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...