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CZ Shadows / TSOs not drop safe


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Did a little mallet testing of my own with primed cases and the springs and FP I had on hand.

 

CZC extended FP with rami FP spring - ignition with mallet.  I can confirm that, with the 11.5lb mainspring, the hammer rests on the slide, and the tip of the FP extends past the hole.

 

Stock FP with rami FP spring - NO ignition with mallet.  This might be the best scenario, as the tip doesn't extend past the hole, but the hammer is still resting on the slide with a 13lb mainspring.  This setup lit off CCI with a DA pull.

 

Stock FP with stock FP Spring. - NO ignition with mallet.  The stock FP spring does hold the hammer off the slide however (if it matters). Even with a 15lb mainspring. This setup lit off CCI with a DA pull.  DA pull was 8lb.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, koteris said:

Did a little mallet testing of my own with primed cases and the springs and FP I had on hand.

 

CZC extended FP with rami FP spring - ignition with mallet.  I can confirm that, with the 11.5lb mainspring, the hammer rests on the slide, and the tip of the FP extends past the hole.

 

Stock FP with rami FP spring - NO ignition with mallet.  This might be the best scenario, as the tip doesn't extend past the hole, but the hammer is still resting on the slide with a 13lb mainspring.  This setup lit off CCI with a DA pull.

 

Stock FP with stock FP Spring. - NO ignition with mallet.  The stock FP spring does hold the hammer off the slide however (if it matters). Even with a 15lb mainspring. This setup lit off CCI with a DA pull.  DA pull was 8lb.

 

 

 

 

Nice, great info thanks!

 

Just replaced both my iron-sight and optics slide on my Shadow with stock FP and spring, as well on my long-slide Shadow.  Pencil test still sends pencil out of barrel.  Staying that way.

Edited by MoRivera
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4 hours ago, MoRivera said:

 I think we may be overthinking this.

I agree. Just don't drop your mother f***-ing gun, ok? and also don't point it uprange while reloading (or any other time), and also don't hook the trigger on something while holstering and shoot yerssef in the dang leg.

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3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I agree. Just don't drop your mother f***-ing gun, ok? and also don't point it uprange while reloading (or any other time), and also don't hook the trigger on something while holstering and shoot yerssef in the dang leg.

Thats deep man.

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I am firmly in the camp this is a non issue and nothing needs to be changed to the rules or my gun. His death was an accident but not one that should change the way things are done.

Edited by rowdyb
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3 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I am firmly in the camp this is a non issue and nothing needs to be changed to the rules or my gun. His death was an accident but not one that should change the way things are done.

At the end of the day, yeah I agree.  But I took the measures to return FP and FP sporing back to stock, realizing that I never should have changed them in the first place.

 

But it's a human error whose likelihood is just as high or low as a million other things that could be just as catastrophic due to a gun's design feature, and we do our best to guard against each match.

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23 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I am firmly in the camp this is a non issue and nothing needs to be changed to the rules or my gun. His death was an accident but not one that should change the way things are done.

I’m grabbing a chair with you.  We are talking about the most common pattern firearm used in this sport for production and carry optics.  There have been hundreds of thousands of draws, holsters, reloads and rounds down range in a single season without incident. 

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1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

I am firmly in the camp this is a non issue and nothing needs to be changed to the rules or my gun. His death was an accident but not one that should change the way things are done.

 

Well said.

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The ONLY potential quality improvement consideration that has been made thus far is a stepped change to the rule for the "Make Ready" to have a separate command given by the RO, "If ready, safely holster your pistol".  Everything else seems like speculation and risk aversion to the extreme.  What we do is inherently dangerous.  This is a sport/hobby/action in which participation is at your own risk.  Ranges are dangerous.  The best thing we can do is watch our own behavior, and those who we know need some more guidance and keep each other as safe as possible.  This is tragic, and in no way malicious, but we shouldn't allow it to make us begin to eat each other or erode the sport.  If nothing else, a 5-10 minute conversation at the next match regarding safe weapons handling practices and the fact ALL people on a range are RSOs would do well to remind people that what we do is dangerous, and inform people of this tragedy, and how to mitigate the risk of another incident like it.  Either way, waiting for the official report would do us all some good. 

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I find it disturbing that a loss of human life, of a man, a father, a husband, and one of us doesn't raise a bit of consideration whether the inherent safety of guns that we use should be improved for so many here. I wonder what would those say if it was them getting shot dead. Wait, they wouldn't.

 

It doesn't matter if it is just one life lost out of trillions stages and man / years, and it doesn't matter how more dangerous other sports are. This was a preventable death, both at the levels of improved handling discipline and firearm design. A firearm maker cannot bring a practical use pistol, duty or self defense, to the market without a  functional drop safety. Unless it is SIG P320  but I digress... That's really what the standard is in 21 century. With the game being born during the time when M1911 was a duty gun, we're running with the guns based on historic and outdated standards. We also alter those standards towards lesser inherent safety with extended pins, light springs etc.

 

Addition of drop safeties doesn't affect performance. I've a series 80 1911 that has a superb trigger and my Stock 2 received compliments from ROs on its trigger during chono. Any existing reigning gun design used in sport can be done with a drop safety.

 

The real issue is a burden that such change would impose on current shooters, and that's a very important consideration. Which is why this has to be a generational change. Something like "by year 2040 all guns have to have functional drop safety".  Manufacturers will adapt, new shooters will be advised appropriately what to buy, some of us will be dead from natural causes, and the rest will wear out our current guns and move on.

 

BTW, I am running around with Shadow 2s, one with extended safey (till yesterday), one with OEM after  the extended one got stuck in the breechface hole, and a pre-safety Kimber. I am not panicking, not selling them, and will continue both enjoying competing and ROing when asked. I just think it is infuriating when a human life is lost simply because we are heavily invested in equipment which is less safe than contemporaneously available and equally capable equipment that is more intrinsically safe,

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6 hours ago, shred said:

If indeed the extended firing pins are so long that the pin protrudes from the breechface with the hammer down, then that's a concern.

 

Exactly.  CZ and other manufactures use inertia firing pins for a good reason (this very reason).   Wouldn't surprise me if we have improper mods that need to be addressed before we start pointing fingers at the rules or the manufacturers.

 

 

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I see it being as proper/improper as lightening up the triggers and reducing pre-travel on non-external-safety striker-fired pistols, frankly.....or bringing down single-action trigger breaks to less than 2-lbs.  Things that have been done on a lot of guns over a long time, and as said before not to make light of a tragic loss, but hasn't resulted in a rash of fatal accidents...or even an occasional one.  Should all of it be addressed because of this?  Kinda' sounds a bit like gun control.

Edited by MoRivera
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The liability alone is enough reason to run the stock fp, if indeed it does protrude with the hammer down. 

 

At the end of the day, this is a game, and no one's loss of life, or possible loss of life for a competitive advantage is worth it. This is a loss all around. The family, the sport, CZ, everyone. AD or ND aside, mistakes happen, and we can't just say "don't drop the gun" (which I agree with). 

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12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I agree. Just don't drop your mother f***-ing gun, ok? 

 

Rob Leatham rather famously dropped his gun for a dq at the single stack nationals, and I have seen a local gm with long experience drop a gun as well.

 

s#!t happens. 

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Been following this as I shoot a customized CZ. Lightened SA trigger, but stock FP. After all this speculation has anyone actually seen the report as to what really happened? So many scenarios as to what could have happened vs what did. Maybe I missed that.

 

gerritm

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I've dropped a gun (knocked it out of a race holster actually).  Fully loaded 2011 Open gun.  Didn't go off.  Went home, ditched the holster.   In 20+ years of playing this game I've seen and heard about a number of dropped guns during matches (some early race holsters were terrible at retention)--  almost all no-FPB 1911 designs with light triggers, but never heard of one going off.

 

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I dropped, and quite violently so (my fall broke off a mag pouch and busted my leg), my gun during  Nationals a few years ago. The fall happened so fast that when I landed, I wasn't sure if I still was holding on the gun or not. Gun flew forward 2-3 feet, hit wall post, and landed pointing squarely uprange. Maybe it wouldn've gone off anyway but the fact that it was a Stock 2 with FPB felt very reassuring at that moment.

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10 hours ago, MoRivera said:

I see it being as improper as lightening up the triggers and reducing pre-travel on non-external-safety striker-fired pistols, frankly.....or bringing down single-action trigger breaks to less than 2-lbs.  Should all of it be addressed because of this?

If it's a safety issue (and I'm not saying that it is), then it can be addressed by adding minimum trigger pull requirement. But it's a different story. Guns should not fire when dropped, regardless of how light their triggers are.

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25 minutes ago, shred said:

I've dropped a gun (knocked it out of a race holster actually).  Fully loaded 2011 Open gun.  Didn't go off.  Went home, ditched the holster.  

 

..

 

I recently moved from Kydex to Race Holster. Every stage I lock the gun in the holster and sweep the lock on the draw.

 

The only way I felt safe using it and figured the new holster learn curve was best to incorporate the sweep.

 

I don't trust gravity.

 

As far as the CZ issue, fix it.

 

USPSA Rule 1.1.1 comes before all.

 

Top Fuel is now 1000 ft and Taladega has run restrictor plates for three decades for a reason. (RIP Bobby Allison)

 

To do nothing and chock it up to freak accident is No Bueno.

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So every time there's an accident something must be done to litigate accidents out of existence? Guns will be gone by next week. Every trade I've ever been employed in would've been shut down a century ago. 

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10 minutes ago, WaJim said:

..

As far as the CZ issue, fix it.

 

 

You make that seem super simple. What are you saying the issue is? How would you fix it? There has been a ton of discussion here on what happened and what might or might not of caused it. To simplify it that much you must have a solid grasp on the issue.

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15 hours ago, koteris said:

Did a little mallet testing of my own with primed cases and the springs and FP I had on hand.

 

CZC extended FP with rami FP spring - ignition with mallet.  I can confirm that, with the 11.5lb mainspring, the hammer rests on the slide, and the tip of the FP extends past the hole.

 

Stock FP with rami FP spring - NO ignition with mallet.  This might be the best scenario, as the tip doesn't extend past the hole, but the hammer is still resting on the slide with a 13lb mainspring.  This setup lit off CCI with a DA pull.

 

Stock FP with stock FP Spring. - NO ignition with mallet.  The stock FP spring does hold the hammer off the slide however (if it matters). Even with a 15lb mainspring. This setup lit off CCI with a DA pull.  DA pull was 8lb.

 

 

 

Nope I dont shoot CZ but this guy is on the right track...dont you think?

Edited by WaJim
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7 minutes ago, WaJim said:

 

Nope I dont shoot CZ but this guy is on the right track...dont you think?

 

He may be if we can duplicate that on several guns. A simple rule change might be to say your FP can't protrude past your breech face with the hammer fully down. But in this game HQ has decided to allow all small parts to be changed because they feel it can't be policed. So having a rule like this kind of flies in the face of all the production rulings we've seen in the last few years. Some are saying no guns with out FP blocks, that seems crazy to me and would effect more then just Prod/CO. Others are saying start at half cock, not sure that's the right answer either. Seems like it's not as simple as "fix it"

 

Personally I don't know that a rule change is needed for this. I don't want to see people getting hurt either but guys shoot themselves in the leg way more often then this and no one has ever talked about making any changes to the sport for that. People send rounds over the berm all the time, yet no changes are proposed to stop that either. We're not being vary consistent to start jumping up and down about something that seems like a 1 in a million situation, while accepting all the other dangers that come with our sport. 

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