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CZ Shadows / TSOs not drop safe


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Why do the decocker models lower the hammer to half-cock?  Maybe they figure that people are less apt to drop the guns during competition than duty/carry, so leave it cup to the actual handler.

 

That's why I always figured the half-cock was what's originally intended on the pre-B CZ75's, which evolved into the Shadow and so on.  That as a duty gun, the original CZ75 with no firing pin block was mean to be carried at half-cock.....but according to others, the half cock is only for lowering the hammer manually or in case the hammer is somehow knocked off being fully cocked in a way other than pulling the trigger?

Edited by MoRivera
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This was unfortunately the perfect storm.

 

I did some non scientific testing. 

Shadow 2 11lb hammer spring

Federal match primers.

I used a heavy rubber mallet.

 

1. extended fp and worn out light fp spring.

1.1 Hammer down hitting beaver tail,

Nothing.

1.2 hammer cocked Safety off hitting beaver tail, nothing

1.3 hammer down hitting hammer, bingo ignition.

 

2. Factory fp and factory spring, above testing done in same manner with no ignition.

 

3. Extended fp factory spring

Above testing done in same manner with no ignition

 

Note all above testing was to me equivalent to throwing the gun on a very hard surface not dropping it.

I have not done simulated testing for gun dropping on muzzle.

 

Jumping to conclusions on this accident is not smart. Are we all Democrats now? We need the actual facts. 

 

Even before this incident I felt we needed a better platform for training new shooters before shooting a match.

 

If you don't feel safe going to a match after this incident than go find a different hobby, we don't need you in the sport. Sorry not sorry.

 

My thoughts and prayers go out to both families. 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

Why do the decocker models lower the hammer to half-cock?  Maybe they figure that people are less apt to drop the guns during competition than duty/carry, so leave it cup to the actual handler.

 

That's why I always figured the half-cock was what's originally intended on the pre-B CZ75's, which evolved into the Shadow and so on.  That as a duty gun, the original CZ75 with no firing pin block was mean to be carried at half-cock.....but according to others, the half cock is only for lowering the hammer manually or in case the hammer is somehow knocked off being fully cocked in a way other than pulling the trigger?

 

CZ75,  Shadow 1/2 Manuals on CZ-USA.com Say (paraphrased) Pull Trigger Lower hammer  onto the action or half cock notch, Release trigger.

 

Seems if they were woried about hammer fully down they would not use the word OR they would say ONLY lower to the half cock notch. 

 

 

Edited by MikeBurgess
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1 hour ago, midatlantic said:

 Went down to the basement this morning and loaded a primed case - no bullet or powder - into my TSO. S&W .40. CCI primer. Stock except for recoil spring. Dropped it from shoulder height onto floor, concrete covered with linoleum, no padding. No magazine was in the gun.

 

  Dropped it on muzzle with hammer down. Muzzle with hammer cocked. On hammer with hammer cocked. On hammer not cocked. It did not always strike on the "correct" spot, but it probably simulated a real world inadvertent drop - except for the linoleum. 

 

  In no case did the gun fire. 

 

  If someone can point me to the directions for posting video I'll put up my (very poorly produced) video.

 

  Obviously not a scientific test of any sort, but I was wondering exactly how sensitive the TSO was if dropped. Later today will try same with my Shadow 2.

 

For the fall on the hammer test, just hit the hammer with an actual hammer. Hold the gun and straight up use a hammer to hit the hammer. 

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30 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

CZ75,  Shadow 1/2 Manuals on CZ-USA.com Say (paraphrased) Pull Trigger Lower hammer  onto the action or half cock notch, Release trigger.

 

Seems if they were woried about hammer fully down they would not use the word OR they would say ONLY lower to the half cock notch. 

 

 

Yes, seems that way, so I guess the half-cock is an option but not a necessity?

 

I have a CZ75B compact which is a manual safety model, and when I carry it I have it on half cock.

 

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9 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

Yes, seems that way, so I guess the half-cock is an option but not a necessity?

 

I have a CZ75B compact which is a manual safety model, and when I carry it I have it on half cock.

 

I found a older 75B manual that did not mention using the half cock not at all it said lower onto firing pin stop. 

 

really in the end as has been illustrated in the experiments shown above the real problem is likely after market parts not working the same as factory parts

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2 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I found a older 75B manual that did not mention using the half cock not at all it said lower onto firing pin stop. 

 

really in the end as has been illustrated in the experiments shown above the real problem is likely after market parts not working the same as factory parts

Agreed...the lower-powered firing pin spring in particular.

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34 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

Agreed...the lower-powered firing pin spring in particular.

 

Maybe. Length and weight of aftermarket pins also seems like a thing, and perhaps neither would be an issue with other than federal primers. 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/10/2020 at 8:05 AM, shred said:

Don't run an extended firing pin, use the factory short one.  Use the factory firing pin spring.   Short "inertial" firing pins are for this kind of situation.

 

 

So, a factory-new Shadow 2 dropped on the lowered hammer should not go off?  Critical issue for me, as I was about to purchase a Shadow 2 DA/SA (original slide) or Shadow 2 OR.  No way I'm trusting my life to the idea that I'll never drop the gun or knock it off a bench accidentally!

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3 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Maybe. Length and weight of aftermarket pins also seems like a thing, and perhaps neither would be an issue with other than federal primers. 

 

 

 

 

I include details of the extended pin length/mass here, as amassed from prior discussion.....

 

 

One of the reasons why I got an extended pin for my Shadow is that I shoot a lot of CCI Blazer Brass, so sometimes those primers can be a bit hard, even though my hammer spring is 11.5 lbs and not 8 loans and really light like others.

 

I've actually had some rounds that didn't go off, but they were from a single batch of 500, haven't had it happen since that I can recall....so maybe I don't actually need the extended pin.

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I just fiddled around with a couple S2s and it seems if you are super concerned about this particular failure mode (I am not), then the answer might be a light firing pin return spring. 

 

If the return spring is light enough, the hammer pushes the pin in and rests on the firing pin stop when its down.  Yeah, it can transfer force if whacked hard enough, but if the spring is factory-strong, it pushes the hammer back a tiny bit so the hammer can get a miniscule 'running start'.  The physics gurus can sort out which is more effective an energy transfer.

 

The other thing you can do is shoot Carry Optics and get a scope that overhangs the back...

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15 minutes ago, shred said:

I just fiddled around with a couple S2s and it seems if you are super concerned about this particular failure mode (I am not), then the answer might be a light firing pin return spring. 

 

If the return spring is light enough, the hammer pushes the pin in and rests on the firing pin stop when its down.  Yeah, it can transfer force if whacked hard enough, but if the spring is factory-strong, it pushes the hammer back a tiny bit so the hammer can get a miniscule 'running start'.  The physics gurus can sort out which is more effective an energy transfer.

 

 

 

When I dropped my CZ and it fired the bullet hit the concrete. I don't think that is possible if the gun lands on the hammer. 

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Maybe CZC and Cajun need to make a hammer with out a spur on the back so it can't be hit when it's down. Boom problem solved.

 

You'll have to do the roll your finger out from under the hammer technique to lower the hammer. No more pinching it with that change.

 

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My CZ Shadow.  Hammer fully lowered, 11.5-lb hammer spring, extended firing pin, stock firing pin spring...

 

KVID2237-2b.gif.a46044fc16e2b3e3f50ac30ff22a35e4.gif

 

 

With the reduced-power firing pin spring, the hammer rests fully forward against the rear of slide so you can't push the hammer/spring forward like that.  But there's a lot less pressure on it moving forward farther than that with the reduce-power too.

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5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Maybe CZC and Cajun need to make a hammer with out a spur on the back so it can't be hit when it's down. Boom problem solved.

 

You'll have to do the roll your finger out from under the hammer technique to lower the hammer. No more pinching it with that change.

 

Apparently this is just for single-action, though....

 

https://cesar-shop.com/firearm-parts/pistol/trigger-sistem/hammer-sa-hidden/

 

hammer-sa-hidden-1-NW3.png

Edited by MoRivera
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7 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

Apparently this is just for single-action, though....

 

https://cesar-shop.com/firearm-parts/pistol/trigger-sistem/hammer-sa-hidden/

 

hammer-sa-hidden-1-NW3.png

 

I have these in my TSO and both CMs. Just checked and on the TSO with factory rear sight it is not possible to hit the hammer by dropping it on a flat floor. The furthest protrusion fits below the plane between the beaver tail and rear sight. On the Czechmate it is possible since there is no rear sight, but angle range it needs to fall on is substantially narrower than with a spurred hammer. 

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With an extended firing pin and reduced power firing pin spring, when the hammer is down the firing pin will slightly protrude from the breech face.


How do I know, I took a small dowel and inserted it from the muzzle end and made contact with the tip of the firing pin. If I pushed on the dowel towards the breech face I could actually see the hammer move.

 

So I would assume if a live round was in the chamber and the hammer was down, the firing pin would actually already be in contact with the primer and the hammer not actually bottomed out on the slide like it’s designed. The impact on the hammer would cause the firing pin to hit the primer hard enough to set it off.

 

With a standard firing pin, the reduced power firing pin spring and a CZC 10lb main spring it will still reliably ignite federal primers, not sure about others since I don’t have any other primer types currently.

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9 minutes ago, mveto said:

With an extended firing pin and reduced power firing pin spring, when the hammer is down the firing pin will slightly protrude from the breech face.


How do I know, I took a small dowel and inserted it from the muzzle end and made contact with the tip of the firing pin. If I pushed on the dowel towards the breech face I could actually see the hammer move.

 

So I would assume if a live round was in the chamber and the hammer was down, the firing pin would actually already be in contact with the primer and the hammer not actually bottomed out on the slide like it’s designed. The impact on the hammer would cause the firing pin to hit the primer hard enough to set it off.

 

With a standard firing pin, the reduced power firing pin spring and a CZC 10lb main spring it will still reliably ignite federal primers, not sure about others since I don’t have any other primer types currently.

thanks, this is what I planned to test after work. Guess I'll be pulling the extended pins outs.

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34 minutes ago, mveto said:

With an extended firing pin and reduced power firing pin spring, when the hammer is down the firing pin will slightly protrude from the breech face.


How do I know, I took a small dowel and inserted it from the muzzle end and made contact with the tip of the firing pin. If I pushed on the dowel towards the breech face I could actually see the hammer move.

 

So I would assume if a live round was in the chamber and the hammer was down, the firing pin would actually already be in contact with the primer and the hammer not actually bottomed out on the slide like it’s designed. The impact on the hammer would cause the firing pin to hit the primer hard enough to set it off.

 

With a standard firing pin, the reduced power firing pin spring and a CZC 10lb main spring it will still reliably ignite federal primers, not sure about others since I don’t have any other primer types currently.

You're right, I never checked that but just did.  You can see with the slide locked back too.

 

So maybe it really is the extended pin regardless of which FP spring you use.  I would have thought there was more room before it protruded.

 

This seems to give both possibilities of a regular FP spring and the the hammer resting slightly back, but also a reduced FP spring with hammer forward but still in contact, since you've basically got a solid connection from hammer to pin to primer!

 

ETA: so just put the stock firing pin and stock FP spring back in my Shadow.  Did the pencil test and it still sends the pencil out of the barrel, which is more than oath 9mm guns I have that I haven't had any misfires or light strikes with.  Gonna keep it this way as long as I don't have any issues firing.

Edited by MoRivera
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If anyone still has a stock hammer spring in a S2, see if the hammer can be pushed forward when it's down.  Could be the factory hammer spring is strong enough to overcome the factory firing pin spring.

 

If indeed the extended firing pins are so long that the pin protrudes from the breechface with the hammer down, then that's a concern.

 

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I have a 14-lb hammer spring in my CZ75B Compact and stock pin/FP spring, and it suspends the hammer at fully-forward rest.  But I think the stock is something like 16-18 lbs.  I'll see if I can find my stock hammer spring for the Shadow and test it out.

 

Still hard to figure out which is the 'safer' resting position.

Edited by MoRivera
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This seems like one of the times a variable firing pin spring would work well.  Set the first part of compression at 'light' to let the hammer down (if that is "better", and I think it should be), and the set the second part of the spring at 'factory'. 

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