CZ Shadows / TSOs not drop safe

[yigal]

1 hour ago, MoRivera said:

Good insight.  Has your ignition been reliable with the original pin?

Did you mean, if everything was okay he would shoot?

[Lior]

As far as safety records go, our sport has a good one. I'm pretty sure that more competition shooters have died in motor accidents on the way to the firing range than by dropped firearms during matches and training.

 

[RangerTrace]

12 minutes ago, Lior said:

As far as safety records go, our sport has a good one. I'm pretty sure that more competition shooters have died in motor accidents on the way to the firing range than by dropped firearms during matches and training.

 

Absolutely.

[Silverscooby27]

9 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

There are people on the other thread going on about how this is a design defect.  So, if some here are taking that position, you can imagine what the general public will think.  As for dealing with the latter, it's pretty much impossible to have a rational discussion because they typically have zero knowledge on the subject, and all their arguments are emotional rather than fact-based.  It's an exercise in futility.

Which thread is the other thread? I like lurking these, I find it interesting.

[Stafford]

1 hour ago, Silverscooby27 said:

Which thread is the other thread? I like lurking these, I find it interesting.

Same here, where is the other thread?

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Silverscooby27 said:

Which thread is the other thread? I like lurking these, I find it interesting.

 

7 minutes ago, Stafford said:

Same here, where is the other thread?

RO Fatally shot

[Tango]

15 hours ago, B_RAD said:

The victim here wasn’t shooting.  It wasn’t his gun. He was a “bystander”. Are you going to show up at matches or ranges where a similar gun is or might be used?

i will stay clear of those who shoot these guns for sure

[Tango]

15 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

If anyone is jittery about having a CZ that could fire if dropped, just replace it with a CZ that has a firing pin block.

 

The CZ firing pin block is a vertical cylinder with a notch that matches a notch cut into the top of the firing pin.  The FPB is sprung from the top to force it down onto the FP, locking it from moving fwd far enough to ignite a primer.  Gun hitting the deck muzzle first, butt first, it doesn't matter.  The firing pin won't move enough to set off a cartridge.

 

The only way the FPB disengages is when the FPB lifter (part of the sear cage) cams fwd and pushes the FPB up and out of the way of the firing pin.  The only way the FPB lifter will move is if the transfer bar (connected directly to the trigger) pushes back on the bottom leg of the lifter (rotating the lifter fwd, which cams up against the FPB).  It doesn't matter where the hammer is: all the way down, on the half cock notch (where the decocker puts the hammer), or cocked all the way back.  The FPB lifter will not cam up unless the trigger is pulled back almost to the point of sear release.

THIS!

Why trade safety with a half pound reduction in trigger pull?  Its not gonna make you a champion shooter or anything like that.

[Stafford]

11 minutes ago, Tango said:

i will stay clear of those who shoot these guns for sure

There are a fair number of people using the Shadow 2 for Production or CO. I've only shot local matches, but it's fairly common to see this model.

 

I'm running a 13# hammer spring with the original firing pin. But you have no way of knowing if a competitor has the extended pin unless you ask them.

 

I'm more worried about the turn and draw stages where there is a chance of sweeping everyone up range. 

[Tango]

4 minutes ago, Stafford said:

There are a fair number of people using the Shadow 2 for Production or CO. I've only shot local matches, but it's fairly common to see this model.

 

I'm running a 13# hammer spring with the original firing pin. But you have no way of knowing if a competitor has the extended pin unless you ask them.

 

I'm more worried about the turn and draw stages where there is a chance of sweeping everyone up range. 

 

Prior to this I didn't know that most CZ's had no firing pin block, and that they start with the hammer on firing pin. This is nuts. I have always found the "pull the trigger on a live round" method of decocking to be wrong too. Overall, this is something the users, USPSA and manufacturers should look at. I dont care who and how. Lets just agree on not running around with guns which if dropped would have a high chance of going off and killing somebody. I don't understand  how some people here take this so lightly.

[wchangose]

7 minutes ago, Tango said:

Prior to this I didn't know that most CZ's had no firing pin block, and that they start with the hammer on firing pin. This is nuts.

We're running around with loaded guns.  Chances of an AD from someone falling are a possibility, breaking the 180, ricochets, and other bad events are a possibility, and yet you never hear of this stuff because all in all it's very safe.  This might not be the sport for you.  GSSF is something you might want to look into.  Not kidding, all guns are Glocks with the safe action trigger.

[Tango]

24 minutes ago, wchangose said:

We're running around with loaded guns.  Chances of an AD from someone falling are a possibility, breaking the 180, ricochets, and other bad events are a possibility, and yet you never hear of this stuff because all in all it's very safe.  This might not be the sport for you.  GSSF is something you might want to look into.  Not kidding, all guns are Glocks with the safe action trigger.

Thanks for the suggestion. How about: don't mess around with guns to the point that they are unsafe, or don't use them in a condition that they are not intended for? But no, that would make too much sense.

[wchangose]

4 minutes ago, Tango said:

How about: don't mess around with guns to the point that they are unsafe, or don't use them in a condition that they are not intended for? But no, that would make too much sense.

We don't officially even know what happened yet.  Life is unsafe.  Let's take a breath before we start making declarations and stating as facts things that may or may not be true.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Tango said:

THIS!

Why trade safety with a half pound reduction in trigger pull?  Its not gonna make you a champion shooter or anything like that.

 

Of course another way to look at is this sport is shot world wide and has been around for about 45 years. This has now happened once. Should we really ban all guns with out FP blocks? This is the same debate that got machine guns banned and hi-cap mags, AR-15's etc. If we can save just one life why wouldn't you support the ban? 

 

I mentioned before I know of 4 people in this area that have shot themselves either holstering or drawing. All happening since I started shooting. And shooting yourself if the leg you have a good chance of killing yourself. There was a guy that died back in 2017 from what I've read was related to drawing the gun. Yet for some reason we aren't talking about eliminating drawing from the holster. Even this case wouldn't of happened if the shooter didn't need to draw. 

 

 

[ima45dv8]

I'm saddened and worried by all of the posts claiming/blaming the hardware for this event. And those saying the parent organization is also responsible is a dangerous line of rhetoric. This is a sad case of user error. Let's try to slow down the spread of misinformation that could be used to bankrupt entities not directly responsible. 

[MoRivera]

Frankly I'd be more concerned with all the ultra-lightened triggers on striker-fired guns than these, if we look at things rationally and realize it all starts with human error.

 

 

Or...we could look at the outstanding record of safety up to this point (which includes widespread use of the gun model in question) considering the nature of the sport, and take this rare but albeit tragic incident as a reminder to stay vigilant.

Edited November 11, 2020 by MoRivera

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Tango said:

Lets just agree on not running around with guns which if dropped would have a high chance of going off and killing somebody.

umm, that seems like a pretty bold statement that would require some evidence (not just anecdotes) to back it up. I'm definitely not ready to agree that a particular gun has a high chance of going off and killing someone if dropped, and I'm also not ready to agree that such a gun should not be used in competition.

 

I come from a background of bicycle and motorcycle racing tho, not sitting on the sofa expecting others to bubble-wrap me and keep me safe.

[wchangose]

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that seems like a pretty bold statement that would require some evidence

Wait for evidence instead of just making proclamations as to what is safe or not?  Wow, what a concept! 

 

I have to apologize for being sarcastic.   23 years in the military and countless "committees" attempting to make things safer has left a bad taste in my mouth.  I had a commander once who used to start our mission briefs, "Safety is paramount," he wasn't very effective. The next guy came in and said, "If safety is paramount, we shouldn't be flying these things."  He was right.  

 

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a rule change, but I'm saying that pronouncements of rule and gun changes, in a sport with a very good safety record, before the facts are known is premature.

 

Life is risky, no thank you on the bubble wrap.

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by wchangose

[Racinready300ex]

25 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

Frankly I'd be more concerned with all the ultra-lightened triggers on striker-fired guns than these

 

I have to admit, I've felt some striker triggers that are basically SA triggers. I don't know what's happening inside, but I have trouble imagining all of the factory internal safety's are working properly. In fact GG wont put a pretravel adjustment on there triggers saying it will disable the drop safety. I know some guys run the AC triggers with zero pre-travel. Is it safe? I don't know, I choose not to run that kind of set up. 

[IHAVEGAS]

On 11/9/2020 at 11:44 AM, outerlimits said:

If there is any truth to the story it was a cz without a firing pin block

 

I'm coming into this thread late and haven't read all 7 pages, but anyway for what it is worth:

I came forward on the draw with a CZ 75 CTS-LS (no firing pin block) before the barrel cleared the holster during practice.

Dropped gun landed on concrete and fired.

After cleaning my shorts I found that the bullet marked the concrete as if it landed muzzle first between my feet.

 

The gun in question had an extended firing pin and a reduced weight firing pin spring - the ammo had deep seated soft federal primers. 

 

I sent a notification to CZ Custom when it happened and have made a comment or two about it on this site previously. I just noticed that that particular gun has been discontinued.  

[midatlantic]

 Went down to the basement this morning and loaded a primed case - no bullet or powder - into my TSO. S&W .40. CCI primer. Stock except for recoil spring. Dropped it from shoulder height onto floor, concrete covered with linoleum, no padding. No magazine was in the gun.

 

  Dropped it on muzzle with hammer down. Muzzle with hammer cocked. On hammer with hammer cocked. On hammer not cocked. It did not always strike on the "correct" spot, but it probably simulated a real world inadvertent drop - except for the linoleum. 

 

  In no case did the gun fire. 

 

  If someone can point me to the directions for posting video I'll put up my (very poorly produced) video.

 

  Obviously not a scientific test of any sort, but I was wondering exactly how sensitive the TSO was if dropped. Later today will try same with my Shadow 2.

 

[858]

There's a whole host of pistols that are intended for competition only that aren't drop safe. All Shadow model, all TS/CM, and all combinations of parts using the slides from those models. This isn't some new revelation, CZ introduced the B models for a reason.

 

Sh!t happens, the shooting sports have some risk. If you don't want to be the person having ND's maybe practice more. The vast majority of safety infractions I see come from people who's only practice is at matches when they're trying to perform well beyond their current level of skill. It would be interesting to know the experience of the people in this thread wringing their hands about dope safeties, I suspect these two groups overlap.

 

 

[MoRivera]

38 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I have to admit, I've felt some striker triggers that are basically SA triggers. I don't know what's happening inside, but I have trouble imagining all of the factory internal safety's are working properly. In fact GG wont put a pretravel adjustment on there triggers saying it will disable the drop safety. I know some guys run the AC triggers with zero pre-travel. Is it safe? I don't know, I choose not to run that kind of set up. 

Depends on the gun, but yeah if there's NO pre travel, then you have to wonder if the firing pin block plunger is even part of the equation.  And yes, it can be so light and short that it's essentially like a single-action without a thumb safety.

 

Heck, that's one of the reasons why I' not even interested in a stock HK VP9 as a carry gun...that striker trigger has short takeup and a light break...makes me a bit nervous.

 

But by that reckoning, as long as you don't touch the trigger until actually firing.....so it comes back down to the human element.  So I guess you have to look at how much the sport is depending on human safety, and how it's done so far all things considered.

 

But then, are more new shooters entering the sport with less prior experience, etc?  Potentially a lot of things to look at.

 

14 minutes ago, midatlantic said:

 Went down to the basement this morning and loaded a primed case - no bullet or powder - into my TSO. S&W .40. CCI primer. Stock except for recoil spring. Dropped it from shoulder height onto floor, concrete covered with linoleum, no padding. No magazine was in the gun.

 

  Dropped it on muzzle with hammer down. Muzzle with hammer cocked. On hammer with hammer cocked. On hammer not cocked. It did not always strike on the "correct" spot, but it probably simulated a real world inadvertent drop - except for the linoleum. 

 

  In no case did the gun fire. 

 

  If someone can point me to the directions for posting video I'll put up my (very poorly produced) video.

 

  Obviously not a scientific test of any sort, but I was wondering exactly how sensitive the TSO was if dropped. Later today will try same with my Shadow 2.

 

And the TSO has the same firing pin as the Shadow and Shadow 2, so from that standpoint they should be essentially the same.  Wow...I wouldn't intentionally drop my guns if for no other reason to damage them....you're a brave man!

Edited November 11, 2020 by MoRivera

[midatlantic]

Was wondering about the safety factor during draws or while running. Given all thats been written above I wanted some idea, granted very imprecise, on how sensitive the TSO was if dropped. So I got a little.

 

[MikeBurgess]

For the No Firing pin block = Defective or hammer down is not as intended crowd, you are aware are you not that CZ builds these guns for IPSC/USPSA competition with 100% knowledge that they are to be used hammer fully down so it is unlikely that they "intend" that it is used differently,