CZ Shadows / TSOs not drop safe

[MoRivera]

6 minutes ago, shred said:

...until the aftermarket hammer makers start moving the half-cock notch closer and closer to full-cock for those people that want the lightest possible triggers, and here we are again...

 

Thing is there's already an existing precendent...as it would be the exact same starting hammer position as a gun that's already approved, i.e. a CZ 75 SP-01 tactical or other model with decocker.  That's in fact why I first went with an SP-01 Tactical when I started USDPSA because of the shorter DA pull, but I liked the Shadow's trigger better overall.

Edited November 11, 2020 by MoRivera

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, GrumpyOne said:

I can see your point, but the statistics say no. We don't know of many (or any) other accidental discharges of the same type which have occurred, so, to change the rules because of a single occurrence out of millions of times that action has been performed, without incident,  is highly unlikely, although it could happen. If you flip a coin, and call it in the air, you are going to call heads or tails...it will never occur to you to call that it lands on its edge, but that is a possibility...a very, very small possibility, but one that could, given millions of flips, occur. 

Seat belts were invented, put into cars, and then laws were passed to enforce the wearing of them, after possibly hundreds of thousands of people were seriously injured or killed in accidents (again, 99.9% of accidents are caused by operator error). If one person, in the history of motorized transport, had been killed by not having or wearing a seat belt, do you think that seat belts would be a mandatory safety item in every car built, and laws governing the use of them?

 

In risk analysis the probability of an event occurring is only one factor.  The other factors are the probability that the event can be detected before it happens and the consequences of it happening.

 

Each factor is assigned a weighted number and the multiple of all three determines how much mitigation needs to be done.

 

When the consequence of an event is death, its weighing factor typically overwhelms even a very small probability factor.

 

I would hope that USPSA would use a risk analysis methodology like that.

[Joe4d]

the free floating firing pin isnt the problem,, only way that lights off a round is if gun hits muzzle down and it would have to be pretty hard.  Which isnt likely to cause a major injury.
The problem isnt the CZ, the problem is the asinine USPSA rule requiring a loaded condition the gun was not designed to do. 
NONE of these guns being discussed were ever meant to have a hammer lowered on a loaded chamber. You have just bypassed pretty much every safety they have. CZ specifically says hammer should only be lowered to the safety notch. I even once left a match when they tried to tell me to do that to a Browning Hipower for an in box start,,, hammer down on a loaded chamber... Umm nope not happening bub. 
Heck people figured that out in the 1800's. 

USPSA needs to get over this ridiculous trigger separation rules they have. Striker guns made DA/SA rules obsolete,  not to mention actual scores dont support the separation.  Guns should simply be prepared in a manner appropriate for the design. 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Joe4d

[Joe4d]

Problem is USPSA mandating an unsafe start position not recommended by the MFG. 1911, CZ's, and what not were never meant to have the hammer lowered on a loaded chamber.   Stupid rule that should have never been written.
RUle should just be to load the gun in a manner appropriate to the design. Cocked and locked, decocked, on the half cock notch. (which is what CZ says).

[Jeff226]

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

The "hammer resting on the firing pin" is not a CZ design flaw.  It's a USPSA rules flaw.

 

ALL DA/SA CZs have a half cock notch to prevent this very thing.  Many DA/SA CZs also have a firing pin block in addition to the half cock notch.

 

DA/SA CZs which come equipped with a decocker will drop the hammer to the half cock notch upon decocker operation, BY DESIGN.

 

So it looks to me by simple deduction that CZ intends its pistols to be carried with the hammer on the half cock notch when in DA mode.

 

For whatever reason USPSA rules require DA/SA pistols without a decocker to be "manually decocked" by lowering the hammer all the way down past any half cock notch that may exist in the pistol.  However, the very same rules state that a DA/SA pistol is "fully decocked" wherever the hammer stops upon decocker actuation.  See Appendix D4 Special Condition 1 and Appendix D7 Special Conditions 1 and 2.

When the hammer is fully lowered it doesn't rest on the firing pin, it rests on the slide.  A fully lowered hammer on a STOCK DA/SA CZ is the most safe hammer position.  Yes, the firing pin will be pushed against the lowered hammer under spring tension but the hammer cannot transfer energy independently to the firing pin because of contact with the slide.

 

The half cock is DESIGNED to catch the hammer if the full cock notch is broken. If you carry a non firing pin block CZ around on half cock it is more dangerous than the fully lowered hammer because if the hammer is broke free of the half cock notch it could in theory apply force independently to the firing pin which would be protruding from the back of the slide.

 

Firing pins don't inertia fire when dropped on the butt...only muzzle down.  However, triggers can be inertia pulled when the gun is dropped on the butt from sufficient height.  That height is reduced when you start lightening springs.    

[Jeff226]

15 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Problem is USPSA mandating an unsafe start position not recommended by the MFG. 1911, CZ's, and what not were never meant to have the hammer lowered on a loaded chamber.   Stupid rule that should have never been written.
RUle should just be to load the gun in a manner appropriate to the design. Cocked and locked, decocked, on the half cock notch. (which is what CZ says).

A stock CZ is VERY safe with the hammer FULLY lowered on a live round.  Why design the gun with a double action first pull if the gun was not designed to be carried with  a round in the chamber???

Edited November 11, 2020 by Jeff226

[MoRivera]

53 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

the free floating firing pin isnt the problem,, only way that lights off a round is if gun hits muzzle down and it would have to be pretty hard.  Which isnt likely to cause a major injury.
The problem isnt the CZ, the problem is the asinine USPSA rule requiring a loaded condition the gun was not designed to do. 
NONE of these guns being discussed were ever meant to have a hammer lowered on a loaded chamber. You have just bypassed pretty much every safety they have. CZ specifically says hammer should only be lowered to the safety notch. I even once left a match when they tried to tell me to do that to a Browning Hipower for an in box start,,, hammer down on a loaded chamber... Umm nope not happening bub. 
Heck people figured that out in the 1800's. 

USPSA needs to get over this ridiculous trigger separation rules they have. Striker guns made DA/SA rules obsolete,  not to mention actual scores dont support the separation.  Guns should simply be prepared in a manner appropriate for the design. 

 

Yeah I was thinking...

 

a) have there been any actual drop-fires wit the muzzle hitting ever recorded?  Has it been tested?  What does the bullet do with the guns muzzle right there on the ground?

 

and b) if you look at the velocity of a firing pin when struck by the hammer, the gun would have to be going at that same velocity if it struck muzzle down for that pin to follow through at the same speed....which would be the same as any object dropped from that same distance.  I haven't tested but it seems to me that 'velocity of ignition' would be quite a bit more than what an object would reach free-falling from 3 to 6 feet.

 

But I guess it's more about what is the minimum velocity of that firing pin needed to both overcome the firing pin spring and also ignite a primer.

Edited November 11, 2020 by MoRivera

[darkhumor]

2 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

That sounds about right. Imagine the RO standing beside you and in back a little. You load, lower the hammer, and, while looking down range, still gathering your plan (or, just going over it again), you go to holster, like you have 1k times before, without looking. You drop the gun into the holster (assume the most typical kydex holster, no serious retention), but instead of dropping it into the holster, you miss slightly, catching the muzzle on the front of the holster, flipping the gun out of your hand, rotating it forward, and then falling. It would most likely hit hammer first, pointing backwards and up...right where the RO would be standing. 

 

Wouldn't this be a dropped gun.

This rule should be enforced even when holstering. Dropping your gun in the holster is still a dropped gun.

 

Dropped gun - A condition in which a competitor loses control of their firearm. Loss of control does not require the firearm to land on the ground or other range surface or prop. It occurs anytime the firearm is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair.

 

[MoRivera]

21 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

When the hammer is fully lowered it doesn't rest on the firing pin, it rests on the slide.  A fully lowered hammer on a STOCK DA/SA CZ is the most safe hammer position.  Yes, the firing pin will be pushed against the lowered hammer under spring tension but the hammer cannot transfer energy independently to the firing pin because of contact with the slide.

 

The half cock is DESIGNED to catch the hammer if the full cock notch is broken. If you carry a non firing pin block CZ around on half cock it is more dangerous than the fully lowered hammer because if the hammer is broke free of the half cock notch it could in theory apply force independently to the firing pin which would be protruding from the back of the slide.

 

Firing pins don't inertia fire when dropped on the butt...only muzzle down.  However, triggers can be inertia pulled when the gun is dropped on the butt from sufficient height.  That height is reduced when you start lightening springs.    

But if we're talking a CZ shadow with a hammer, we're still taking a double-action first pull and even if it's as light as 5-6lbs, I highly doubt that even a thick trigger would have enough momentum to pull back that whole way with a drop of only three feet or so.  Also, falling on the hammer would further prevent the trigger from pulling back, as anyone who's put their thumb on the back of a hammer and tried pulling double-action can tell.  That trigger's inertia would have to overcome both that and the momentum of the entire gun for that matter.

 

So based on the, it seems the only sensible explanation is that somehow the shock of the impact was transmitted from the hammer to the pin.  Maybe the hammer spring was so light that it let the pin push back on the resting hammer enough to allow a little space to start moving.

 

But I do agree that the hammer should be resting on the frame/slide.  Checking my own CZ shadow, I just don't see how the hammer would push the firing pin and farther at rest after it's fully down.  Bu then, my hammer spring is 12 lbs, as opposed to 8 or so.

 

Maybe the firing pin bounced...and it is an extended one so there was just enough contact with the primer after bouncing?

Edited November 11, 2020 by MoRivera

[BritinUSA]

Agreed, if the gun is dropped into the holster versus being place into the holster then the competitor has no control over it. As I mentioned before, I have seen people do this on several occasions with Production/CO guns.

[Jeff226]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

I feel from a personal viewpoint as a fairly experienced CRO, that the shooter failed to ensure the gun was properly holstered. We could never experience this exact incident again if the gun had been holstered as needed.

  This is in no way an attack on the shooter but it is what set the incident in motion. 

If the gun was modded in such a way that it allowed it to fire when dropped on the hammer outside the holster, then it would just as easily fire if the holster fell off of the belt and it landed in the same manner.

 

I seriously doubt the gun fired as a result of a fall on the hammer and  think it being dropped during the stage, before the hammer was lowered, or maybe he tried to catch the gun when dropped and inadvertently fired it to be more likely...but I guess we won't know for sure unless the whole story comes out.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Jeff226

[MoRivera]

I've never seen anyone just drop their pistol into their holster.  If I did, I'd definitely take issue with it.....that sounds silly.

 

Just now, Jeff226 said:

If the gun was modded in such a way that it allowed it to fire when dropped on the hammer outside the holster, then it would just as easily fire if the holster fell off of the belt and it landed in the same manner.

 

I seriously doubt the gun fired as a result of a fall on the hammer in think it being dropped during the stage, before the hammer was lowered, or maybe he tried to catch the gun when dropped and inadvertently fired it to be more likely...but I guess we won't know for sure unless the whole story comes out.

Yeah that sounds likely too.

Edited November 11, 2020 by MoRivera

[Eric_T]

I have seen it, shooter gets the muzzle in the holster and drops it in.  Seems strange to me, I'm very careful when holstering after make ready, I don't want to shoot myself (or anyone else).  With my carry gun, I put it in the holster before I put the holster on my person, for the same reason.

 

Speaking of the USPSA rules, if they're going to change it, I'd rather that they just allow cocked and locked on DA/SA guns that don't have decockers in Production and CO.  The gun is already cocked after we rack the slide, let's just put the safety on and be done with it, rather than having to tenderly lower the hammer on a loaded chamber.

[racerba]

you guys that are blaming the rule must also take into consideration how long the sport have been going on.  i do believe that this is the first death from an AD that has ever happened.  so that is trillions upon trillions of starts and no deaths have happened from all over the world...even with open guns with 2# trigger pulls.  I have personally seen a guy AD into his foot after a draw.  still not the rule's fault.  Accidents happens...yes, it can be mitigated, but we would be going down a slippery slope if we made a rule for every accident that happened.  the anti gunners will have a field day pointing to every rule that was created because of accidents.  supporting their cause to ban guns...

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by racerba

[BritinUSA]

Agree 100%

[Jeff226]

14 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

But if we're talking a CZ shadow with a hammer, we're still taking a double-action first pull and even if it's as light as 5-6lbs, I highly doubt that even a thick trigger would have enough momentum to pull back that whole way with a drop of only three feet or so.  Also, falling on the hammer would further prevent the trigger from pulling back, as anyone who's put their thumb on the back of a hammer and tried pulling double-action can tell.  That trigger's inertia would have to overcome both that and the momentum of the entire gun for that matter.

 

So based on the, it seems the only sensible explanation is that somehow the shock of the impact was transmitted from the hammer to the pin.  Maybe the hammer spring was so light that it let the pin push back on the resting hammer enough to allow a little space to start moving.

 

But I do agree that the hammer should be resting on the frame/slide.  Checking my own CZ shadow, I just don't see how the hammer would push the firing pin and farther at rest after it's fully down.  Bu then, my hammer spring is 12 lbs, as opposed to 8 or so.

 

Maybe the firing pin bounced...and it is an extended one so there was just enough contact with the primer after bouncing?

Yes, the trigger being inertia fired would have to happen when the hammer was cocked.

 

You can't get reliable ignition from full hammer travel when you start going too low on the hammer spring...the chances of the firing pin bouncing against spring pressure and firing the pistol from a 3-4 foot high fall are statistically impossible in my opinion.

 

 

[MoRivera]

6 minutes ago, Eric_T said:

I have seen it, shooter gets the muzzle in the holster and drops it in.  Seems strange to me, I'm very careful when holstering after make ready, I don't want to shoot myself (or anyone else).  With my carry gun, I put it in the holster before I put the holster on my person, for the same reason.

 

Speaking of the USPSA rules, if they're going to change it, I'd rather that they just allow cocked and locked on DA/SA guns that don't have decockers in Production and CO.  The gun is already cocked after we rack the slide, let's just put the safety on and be done with it, rather than having to tenderly lower the hammer on a loaded chamber.

I always holster slowly and look the gun all the way in.  I'm also checking for anything that's getting caught I the holster as I do it.

[MoRivera]

8 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Yes, the trigger being inertia fired would have to happen when the hammer was cocked.

And off safe!

 

8 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

You can't get reliable ignition from full hammer travel when you start going too low on the hammer spring...the chances of the firing pin bouncing against spring pressure and firing the pistol from a 3-4 foot high fall are statistically impossible in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

Oh I know, whenever I try out a friend's CZ with a 5-6 lb DA pull, I'm wondering just how it's going to ignite reliably, even with an extended pin and lighter pin spring.  My hammer spring is at 11.5-12lb, and that's as light as I want to go...reliability being the key.

 

Yeah I agree that bouncing is unrealistic.  Really, the possibility of him trying to catch it and then pulling trigger seems more and more likely, and maybe it just isn't being reported, or the competitor himself is saying it just hit the ground.

 

10 minutes ago, racerba said:

you guys that are blaming the rule must also take into consideration how long the sport have been going on.  i do believe that this is the first death from an AD that has ever happened.  so that is trillions upon trillions of starts and no deaths have happened from all over the world...even with open guns with 2# trigger pulls.  I have personally seen a guy AD into his foot after a draw.  still not the rule's fault.  Accidents happens...yes, it can be mitigated, but we would be going down a slippery slope if we made a rule for every accident that happened.  the anti gunners will have a field day pointing to every rule that was created because of accidents.  supporting their cause to ban guns...

 

True, if we set up rules to guard against every and any remotely possible user errors, then there'd be no actual shooting by the time you got done.  As I mentioned earlier, we shouldn't start our own witch-hunt.

Edited November 11, 2020 by MoRivera

[Koppi]

Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming the rules. That said, this is an accident, let's address the issue at hand. I feel a rule change would address it going forward. 

 

This was a dropped gun by whatever reason, the likelihood of a discharge would be less if this type of gun was placed on half-cock if available. Wouldn't you all agree?

[MoRivera]

7 minutes ago, Koppi said:

Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming the rules. That said, this is an accident, let's address the issue at hand. I feel a rule change would address it going forward. 

 

This was a dropped gun by whatever reason, the likelihood of a discharge would be less if this type of gun was placed on half-cock if available. Wouldn't you all agree?

I dunno....the more I think about it, the more I'd want to investigate exactly how the discharge happened...see if it can be recreated until we know it was on at the hammer which was down, etc..  And then see if a half-cocked gun of this particular model will resist a drop fire more than a hammer-down one.  For me changing the rule was more about consistency with other CZ's like the decocker models.

 

Sorry about so many posts, folks...but I'm a CZ Shadow shooter and I feel this directly affects me, so I'm very interested.

Edited November 11, 2020 by MoRivera

[racerba]

21 minutes ago, Koppi said:

This was a dropped gun by whatever reason, the likelihood of a discharge would be less if this type of gun was placed on half-cock if available. Wouldn't you all agree?

no - I disagree...it was an accident...it makes it inconsistent with guns without a half cocked position.  do we now ban guns without half cock position?  what about striker fired guns?  again - slippery slope...

[wchangose]

Terrible accident, but why don't we figure out what really happened first before we decide to make rule changes?  We have initial reports, but we don't have the final report.  As I read through some of the responses I feel this sport might just be too risky for some here.   That's not judgment, just a choice each of us must make for ourselves.

[MoRivera]

10 minutes ago, racerba said:

no - I disagree...it was an accident...it makes it inconsistent with guns without a half cocked position.  do we now ban guns without half cock position?  what about striker fired guns?  again - slippery slope...

 

 

No it's specific to this gun that doesn't have a firing pin block, so if the half-cock on this particular gun guards against dropped hammer-strikes, then yes it would be mechanically safer from a drop fire on the hammer than with it fully down.  Whereas a Beretta (which also has a partially cocked position, but the decoder lowers to full-forward) with its hammer fully down still has a firing pin block in place, but a longer first DA pull than a half-cocked CZ. But yeah, you could be opening a can of worms if we start getting so specific with so many different models of handgun...as some might have mechanical 'advantages' over others et al.

 

So even though it may seem extreme...maybe the choices going forward are either ban that gun (and perhaps all others with no firing pin safety), or don't change anything and hope that this unfortunate example further emphasizes practicing safe handling during procedures.

Edited November 11, 2020 by MoRivera

[Diver123]

I have a shadow. I lowered the hammer on a case with just a primer in it to test out the theory that it can ignite on hammer down starts if dropped. I dont  have the extended firing pin in my gun. I shoot winchester primers and the 11lb hammer spring. I hit the back of the hammer with a hammer. Hard multiple times and never got it to ignite a primer. A buddy has the extended pin and he was able to get his to ignite. Just some actual FYI info here.

[MoRivera]

Good insight.  Has your ignition been reliable with the original pin?

Edited November 11, 2020 by MoRivera