CZ Shadows / TSOs not drop safe

[BritinUSA]

Thanks, reason I ask is that I have seen some competitors release the gun a few inches above a holster and let it fall in rather than putting it in the holster.

[Intheshaw1]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

Thanks, reason I ask is that I have seen some competitors release the gun a few inches above a holster and let it fall in rather than putting it in the holster.

I'm thinking it was a race holster but that's only speculation. I've seen a couple of those fail before and it turns into an O crap kind of moment.

[rowdyb]

I've known this since I bought my first Shadow in 2014. It is not something I am concerned with at all.

[Umbrarian]

3 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I've known this since I bought my first Shadow in 2014. It is not something I am concerned with at all.

 

I wonder if the guy who dropped the gun in this case felt the same way.

[B_RAD]

2 hours ago, Tango said:

These guns are not drop safe, plain and simple. Use them at your own risk. I won't.

The victim here wasn’t shooting.  It wasn’t his gun. He was a “bystander”. Are you going to show up at matches or ranges where a similar gun is or might be used?

[MoRivera]

Well if production/carry optics, then it couldn't have been a race holster in USPSA (unless he was allowed for just shooting not for score, etc), in which case a bad job holstering or the screws came loose, and it was likely a Shadow or Shadow 2.  Limited it could be race holster and a SAO like a Tactical Sport.  But yeah, I imagine a lot of things can fail/come loose on a race holster.

[MoRivera]

5 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

The victim here wasn’t shooting.  It wasn’t his gun. He was a “bystander”. Are you going to show up at matches or ranges where a similar gun is or might be used?

Right because that could be a lot of other guns aside from a CZ.

 

This is where this gets messy.....if some shooters are concerned or just refuse to shoot matches with other shooters that have CZ's, 1911/2011's, and various race guns.  Not to point fingers, but we've got enough on our plates with the possible coming presidency and gun laws, it'd be regrettable if we started our own little witch-hunt as well.

[SGT_Schultz]

 

If anyone is jittery about having a CZ that could fire if dropped, just replace it with a CZ that has a firing pin block.

 

The CZ firing pin block is a vertical cylinder with a notch that matches a notch cut into the top of the firing pin.  The FPB is sprung from the top to force it down onto the FP, locking it from moving fwd far enough to ignite a primer.  Gun hitting the deck muzzle first, butt first, it doesn't matter.  The firing pin won't move enough to set off a cartridge.

 

The only way the FPB disengages is when the FPB lifter (part of the sear cage) cams fwd and pushes the FPB up and out of the way of the firing pin.  The only way the FPB lifter will move is if the transfer bar (connected directly to the trigger) pushes back on the bottom leg of the lifter (rotating the lifter fwd, which cams up against the FPB).  It doesn't matter where the hammer is: all the way down, on the half cock notch (where the decocker puts the hammer), or cocked all the way back.  The FPB lifter will not cam up unless the trigger is pulled back almost to the point of sear release.

[MoRivera]

10 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

If anyone is jittery about having a CZ that could fire if dropped, just replace it with a CZ that has a firing pin block.

 

The CZ firing pin block is a vertical cylinder with a notch that matches a notch cut into the top of the firing pin.  The FPB is sprung from the top to force it down onto the FP, locking it from moving fwd far enough to ignite a primer.  Gun hitting the deck muzzle first, butt first, it doesn't matter.  The firing pin won't move enough to set off a cartridge.

 

The only way the FPB disengages is when the FPB lifter (part of the sear cage) cams fwd and pushes the FPB up and out of the way of the firing pin.  The only way the FPB lifter will move is if the transfer bar (connected directly to the trigger) pushes back on the bottom leg of the lifter (rotating the lifter fwd, which cams up against the FPB).  It doesn't matter where the hammer is: all the way down, on the half cock notch (where the decocker puts the hammer), or cocked all the way back.  The FPB lifter will not cam up unless the trigger is pulled back almost to the point of sear release.

See for a lot of folks it's not just an easy replacement, especially as you get into limited and open guns.  There's isn't a version of the Shadow 2 or Tactical Sport that has a firing pin block plunger.  Same probably goes for a lot of 1911/2011 platforms out there.  The slide has to be specifically designed for it and the frame/firing mechanism has to have a lifter in its system.  So when you consider all the money put into some of these guns, and everything that's customized and dedicated around it, you're talking about a major undertaking for a lot of shooters.....some of which a whole changeover like that isn't feasible for.

 

Obviously it's important to take this tragedy seriously, but let's also not overreact.  Got enough of that these days.

Edited November 10, 2020 by MoRivera

[edison]

45 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

Right because that could be a lot of other guns aside from a CZ.

 

This is where this gets messy.....if some shooters are concerned or just refuse to shoot matches with other shooters that have CZ's, 1911/2011's, and various race guns.  Not to point fingers, but we've got enough on our plates with the possible coming presidency and gun laws, it'd be regrettable if we started our own little witch-hunt as well.

 

Yep, could've been any other gun.

 

I can take the pretravel out of my Glock34 to the point that it's not drop safe even with an intact firing pin block. Or a p320 can go off with an intact FPB with the old triggers. 

 

I believe with some springs & an aftermarket trigger, I can make a CZ P01 go off even with an intact FPB just from the inertia of the trigger.

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by edison

[SGT_Schultz]

12 minutes ago, edison said:

I believe with some springs & an aftermarket trigger, I can make a CZ P01 go off even with an intact FPB just from the inertia of the trigger.

 

There isn't a trigger return spring light enough to let you do that

[Silver_Surfer]

5 hours ago, Tango said:

It is always a combination of design flaw and operator error that causes bad accidents. In this case, it is an inherently unsafe equipment and operation mode being accepted in a sport that prides itself with safety that caused this "accident". 

Too be fair it was an operator error first then a design flaw.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Silver_Surfer

[CrashDodson]

Do modern 2011's not have firing pin blocks?

[rowdyb]

2 hours ago, Umbrarian said:

 

I wonder if the guy who dropped the gun in this case felt the same way.

So are you accusing shooters using a gun with no firing pin block as being unsafe??????????????????

[ltdmstr]

17 minutes ago, Silver_Surfer said:

Too be fair it was an operator error first then a design flaw.

 

What's the design flaw?

[dansedgli]

Why is this forum full of people who don't like shooting nice guns. 

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, MoRivera said:

Apparently he missed while holstering or holster malfunction, so assuming at the start after load-and-make-ready.

 

Don't know if it was a Shadow/Shadow 2 starting hammer-down for production, or that/TS for limited for open.  So it either fell on lowered hammer and shot up, or fell muzzle-down and the bullet ricocheted up.  If I had to guess I'd say the former.

This is what makes internet conversations so hard. Has nobody read anything? The gun was a CZ with hammer down after make ready. That TYPICALLY says Production/CO. Gun missed holster and fell onto concrete indoor range floor with hammer striking the floor causing the gun to fire upwards striking the RO.

 This is the original version I got and it has been verified

[regor]

I don't really think the TSO/CM platform should carry the same concern here. Sure, it technically has the same vulnerability of no firing block, but by the very nature of it being SAO there are almost no circumstances when someone would intentionally put the hammer down onto a loaded chamber. In a match scenario the only time I can imagine it possible happening is if a competitor has a light strike and then drops the gun. 

 

The issue is plausible with a Shadow when the hammer is down on the start as required by USPSA. That being said, I just checked my SP-01 and even with the trigger pulled to disengage the FP block the hammer (w/ 11.5# spring) is fully resting against the rear of the slide and there is zero forward play, so it if it lands squarely on the hammer with the hammer forward much of the energy will be transferred into the slide, rather than just the FP. Maybe a combo of a super heavy FP spring plus super light hammer spring would allow the FP/FP spring to push back with enough force to have some gap between the hammer and slide when hammer is down. 

 

The easy fix would be for USPSA to change the requirements for DA/SA guns to be safety on or hammer down to half-cock. Ideally someone should do some testing and figure out if this is a real and repeatable issue with Shadows. At this point we don't even know exactly what happened in this incident. 

[MoRivera]

That's what I had gathered but wasn't sure.

[MoRivera]

34 minutes ago, Silver_Surfer said:

Too be fair it was an operator error first then a design flaw.

Well, assuming the gun's partial-cock is part of the design to guard against this very thing, it kinda' seems more of a ruling flaw that it has to start hammer all the way forward, no?

[MoRivera]

I always wondered why a Shadow or a manual-safety CZ couldn't start from that half-cock position, but a decock-model could.  Aside from the fact the the decocker model lowers to that half-cock, the only reason I could come up with was so that it wouldn't give an advantage in double-action pull (shorter) over guns like a Sig or Beretta that decock to the hammer 'fully-forward'...as they have firing pin block plungers.  But then, the CZ decocker models also have firing pin blocks but still decock to half-cock, and they're allowed to start that way.

 

It will only really make sense now if they will allow the partial-cock as starting condition.

Edited November 11, 2020 by MoRivera

[Tango]

27 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

What's the design flaw?

the flaw is the design with high possibility of a gun going off when dropped on the ground without a part being broken.

 

hammer resting on the firing pin, without a pin block, is a design flaw...the gun goes off when dropped, this is the 21st century we are not talking 1900's firearms here

 

why is this so hard to accept?

 

 

[MoRivera]

2 minutes ago, Tango said:

the flaw is the design with high possibility of a gun going off when dropped on the ground without a part being broken.

 

hammer resting on the firing pin, without a pin block, is a design flaw...the gun goes off when dropped, this is the 21st century we are not talking 1900's firearms here

 

why is this so hard to accept?

 

 

But it's designed with a half-cock position to avoid just that.  So with that engaged, it's technically just as safe/dangerous as any gun without a firing pin plunger like a Series 70 1911/2011, or even the Ruger revolver posted earlier.

[ltdmstr]

1 minute ago, Tango said:

the flaw is the design with high possibility of a gun going off when dropped on the ground without a part being broken.

 

hammer resting on the firing pin, without a pin block, is a design flaw...the gun goes off when dropped, this is the 21st century we are not talking 1900's firearms here

 

why is this so hard to accept?

 

 

 

You could say the same thing about any semiautomatic weapon that can fire without a magazine in the gun.  According to you're reasoning, isn't that a design flaw as well?  There are millions of Colt SAA and SW revolvers that have solid, hammer-mounted firing pins.  Those can be very dangerous if not handled correctly.  Is that a design flaw?  If you want to play tort lawyer, they can find "flaws" in just about anything.

[Sarge]

12 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

Well, assuming the gun's partial-cock is part of the design to guard against this very thing, it kinda' seems more of a ruling flaw that it has to start hammer all the way forward, no?

I feel from a personal viewpoint as a fairly experienced CRO, that the shooter failed to ensure the gun was properly holstered. We could never experience this exact incident again if the gun had been holstered as needed.

  This is in no way an attack on the shooter but it is what set the incident in motion.