CZ Shadows / TSOs not drop safe

[MoRivera]

2 hours ago, lstange said:

If it's a safety issue (and I'm not saying that it is), then it can be addressed by adding minimum trigger pull requirement. But it's a different story. Guns should not fire when dropped, regardless of how light their triggers are.

Well, in this case it's pretty easily addressed with what looks like a stock-length firing pin, and only really applies to a hammer-down drop.  If it made it more susceptible to a muzzle down drop-fire, then one would think like with any Series 70 1911/2011 (or any firearm even with a firing pin block that's lifted when the trigger is to the rear) we'd hear of a lot of runaway full-auto/slam fires, since after each shot that slide is moving forward with some momentum and then is stopped by the frame.  By that reckoning the gun would have to be thrown down on the pavement pretty hard to make it fire, as opposed to a 3-6 ft drop.

 

So altogether I don't think the Shadow is a 'flawed design' or any less inherently drop-safe than a ton of guns that have been run a long time in competition with, let's face it, an outstanding record of safety thus far.  However....it can become less drop-safe once it's pushed via customization for a lighter trigger because of the nature of its design combined with the ruling of starting hammer fully down.

 

So question is should something be done, is the stock firing pin enough?

Edited November 12, 2020 by MoRivera

[motosapiens]

In general, I'm not a big fan of the nanny-state attitude that some kind of legal or rules changes is required to address every accident that ever happens.

Edited November 12, 2020 by motosapiens

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, TonytheTiger said:

So every time there's an accident something must be done to litigate accidents out of existence? Guns will be gone by next week. Every trade I've ever been employed in would've been shut down a century ago. 

 

This has been my thought on the topic exactly.  You have a greater chance of loosing your life driving back and forth to the match than you do participating in a USPSA match.  Are these people prepared to stop driving?  Any loss of life is sad, but life and the things you participate in life are linked to inherent risks.  If you cannot accept those risks then don't participate.  

[nxfedlt1]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

This has been my thought on the topic exactly.  You have a greater chance of loosing your life driving back and forth to the match than you do participating in a USPSA match.  Are these people prepared to stop driving?  Any loss of life is sad, but life and the things you participate in life are linked to inherent risks.  If you cannot accept those risks then don't participate.  

For the sake of discussion, I'll argue that my decision to participate also revolves around competitors maintaining equipment in a working and safelike manner. I'll check primed cases in my S2 tonight, but no gun should fire if dropped due to an owner modification. Nor should we as responsible gun owners condone that. What if the said person dropped it out if the back seat in a mall parking lot, it fires and kills a child or anyone really. It becomes a collective loss for the entire firearm community. Taking a safe gun and making it unsafe shouldn't be allowed. I know AD mistakes will happen, I saw it occasionally in Iraq, but to increase the severity of that occurance shouldn't be an acceptable narrative. 

[MoRivera]

Yes but equipment changes/rulings have been incorporated in other sports for the sake of safety too, be it rally racing or what have you.  Maybe it's a good thing for the future of the sport to take a moment to assess a) how it's grown in popularity, and b) the growth of aftermarket gun parts and customization...much of which is not done by certified gunsmiths or inspected by the sport's administration.  Obviously some things are nearly impossible to 'regulate' without severely bogging down how matches are run.

 

I don't want to react like a typical anti-gunner when it comes to this either, but at the same time I at least want to consider if I...and even others...are making my equipment less forgiving to human error than what's intended with the design.  Yes we all accept a certain amount of risk, but with that I feel comes with accepting some responsibility as well. 

 

Crap, it's so hard not to sound like an anti-gunner here....

Edited November 12, 2020 by MoRivera

[Tango]

On 11/11/2020 at 9:03 AM, ima45dv8 said:

I'm saddened and worried by all of the posts claiming/blaming the hardware for this event. And those saying the parent organization is also responsible is a dangerous line of rhetoric. This is a sad case of user error. Let's try to slow down the spread of misinformation that could be used to bankrupt entities not directly responsible. 

Guns should be drop safe. Especially in a gun sport in which dropping a gun is highly likely. Common sense.

[shred]

"highly likely" is not it.

 

[Boomstick303]

33 minutes ago, nxfedlt1 said:

For the sake of discussion, I'll argue that my decision to participate also revolves around competitors maintaining equipment in a working and safelike manner. I'll check primed cases in my S2 tonight, but no gun should fire if dropped due to an owner modification. Nor should we as responsible gun owners condone that. What if the said person dropped it out if the back seat in a mall parking lot, it fires and kills a child or anyone really. It becomes a collective loss for the entire firearm community. Taking a safe gun and making it unsafe shouldn't be allowed. I know AD mistakes will happen, I saw it occasionally in Iraq, but to increase the severity of that occurance shouldn't be an acceptable narrative. 

 

Do competitors maintain their equipment in a working and safe like manner where you compete?

 

If I felt unsafe or was not willing to accept risks involved with any activity I would walk away.  That includes in the middle of a match I felt someone was super unsafe.

 

How exactly are you ever going to legislate, create rules or otherwise to prevent people from possibly making their gun unsafe?  CZ can do everything you ask and more, it does not mean that any shooter can do something knowingly or unknowingly to undo everything CZ or any manufacturer does to make their gun "SAFE".  It's up to us as a community to step in and talk to a shooter if we something that is "OFF" or unsafe which is done on a regular basis in matches I compete in.  Even with that said, you can't see inside of the gun to make sure that every gun is safe or if it has been modified to make the gun unsafe.  How many hours of matches have occurred with one death?  What is this conversation going to accomplish exactly?  As Tony and I have indicated "So every time there's an accident something must be done to litigate accidents out of existence?"

Edited November 12, 2020 by Boomstick303

[Sarge]

12 minutes ago, Tango said:

Guns should be drop safe. Especially in a gun sport in which dropping a gun is highly likely. Common sense.

Highly likely? It’s actually almost rare that a gun gets dropped in USPSA.

[ima45dv8]

24 minutes ago, Tango said:

Guns should be drop safe. Especially in a gun sport in which dropping a gun is highly likely. Common sense.

If you think it's "highly likely", I'm assuming that's based on your experiences. If that's really the case, then you or the people you shoot with might be the issue. 

[Jeff226]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

In general, I'm not a big fan of the nanny-state attitude that some kind of legal or rules changes is required to address every accident that ever happens.

We already have a rule:

 

5.1.6

Firearms

must be serviceable and safe

.

Range Officers may demand

examination of a competitor’s

firearm

or related equipment, at any time, to

check they are functioning safely.

If any such item is declared unserviceable or

unsafe by a Range Officer, it must be withdrawn from the match until the item

is repaired to the satisfaction of the Range Master.

 

 

Any gun that has a firing pin that is forced to protrude through the breech when the hammer is lowered is not safe.  Conversely, any firearm that has a firing pin so long that it props the hammer back due to contact with the primer when a round is chambered is also not safe.  Intelligent/educated people have known for over a hundred years that resting the hammer/firing pin on the primer of a chambered round was not safe which is why single action revolvers were carried with an empty chamber and most subsequent guns were designed with inertia firing pins.

 

Doesn't matter if the occurrence is rare or we have been lucky so far...firing pins this far out of spec should be forbidden....just like thumb safeties are required to be used on guns so equipped even if we most likely would rarely have an accident if they weren't used.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Jeff226

[MoRivera]

1 hour ago, Tango said:

Guns should be drop safe. Especially in a gun sport in which dropping a gun is highly likely. Common sense.

It is...until you start pushing the envelope of spring weights and pin lengths.

 

Just as all guns should have a degree of safety from debris pulling the trigger or tripping from slide-drop, and most if not all guns do...until you start going for lighter and lighter triggers.  So I don't think it's rational to fixate on this one thing.

Edited November 12, 2020 by MoRivera

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, MoRivera said:

Well, in this case it's pretty easily addressed with what looks like a stock-length firing pin, and only really applies to a hammer-down drop.  If it made it more susceptible to a muzzle down drop-fire, then one would think like with any Series 70 1911/2011 (or any firearm even with a firing pin block that's lifted when the trigger is to the rear) we'd hear of a lot of runaway full-auto/slam fires, since after each shot that slide is moving forward with some momentum and then is stopped by the frame.  By that reckoning the gun would have to be thrown down on the pavement pretty hard to make it fire, as opposed to a 3-6 ft drop.

 

 

Maybe, but keep in mind when the slide is going forward on a handgun it's also picking up the next round out of the mag and feeding it up into the barrel and under the extractor. All of that slows down the slide. My 1911's all have extended pins and I've never replaced the FP spring in any of them. Now I think it's still really unlikely that it could go off if dropped muzzle down, but someone must not agree or they wouldn't of added FP-blocks to them. 

[MoRivera]

24 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Maybe, but keep in mind when the slide is going forward on a handgun it's also picking up the next round out of the mag and feeding it up into the barrel and under the extractor. All of that slows down the slide. My 1911's all have extended pins and I've never replaced the FP spring in any of them. Now I think it's still really unlikely that it could go off if dropped muzzle down, but someone must not agree or they wouldn't of added FP-blocks to them. 

True, but in the case of the extended firing pins and lightened springs it technically increases that possibility.  Really though, every gun's slide goes forward with the firing pin free-floating anyway when the trigger is still held back. I would think for any gun it would have to hit the pavement muzzle-down going pretty darn fast to get that little pin moving enough to ignite the primer.

 

But as has been discovered, with a fully-lowered hammer, the extended pin essentially gives a slide connection at rest from hammer to pin to primer....so it doesn't take much to imagine.......

 

 

 

 

But let's at least wait to find out more details about what changes if any were made to the unfortunate competitor's gun.

Edited November 12, 2020 by MoRivera

[GrumpyOne]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Highly likely? It’s actually almost rare that a gun gets dropped in USPSA.

I've only seen one dropped gun in a COF. GM shooting a Glock in Production, had a case head separation, and he dropped it when it kind of blew apart. I know it happens at other times as well, but, it is rare. We generally don't want our high dollar toys hitting the ground with any force, so we tend to hold onto them.

[MoRivera]

I have seen a loaded Shadow dropped and the competitor (who is a very good one, MA level) was DQ'd, but it didn't fire...maybe fell on its side.  I think the holster may have broken.

 

I have seen negligent discharges from someone at load-and-make-ready, during unloading, during transitions, and on the draw.  Never a drop fire.

Edited November 12, 2020 by MoRivera

[yigal]

26 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by yigal

[MoRivera]

Just a visual demonstration of the mallet test that's already been mentioned in this thread, demonstrating how an impact on a lowered hammer can still set off a primer.

Edited November 12, 2020 by MoRivera

[Racinready300ex]

Next questions might be

 

Are CZC custom and Cajun pins the same? Both have issue?

 

Will they let us return them? I've got two cajun pins, one's never been in a gun. 

[Stafford]

How about a new shooter who also starts competition? Sends the gun off for trigger work and gets the full super light trigger weight package. Has no idea about the internal workings of the gun, the terminology, or any understanding of how the various parts work with each other. Only knows that now the trigger is lighter and easier to shoot. Is that person negligent?

[motosapiens]

I'm a reasonable person, and it looks like a bizarre accident to me, not willful negligence.... but then i have never desired for lawyers and governments to take charge of my life to make me safe.

[MikeBurgess]

I believe years (and several generations of pin design) ago Henning had a note on his site to verify pin length and file to flush or below with hammer down.

 

This would have been for the old Non FPB firing pins aimed at open and limited guns, this was when Glock ruled production and NOBODY shot a CZ or Tanfoglio (aka pre Ben).

[MoRivera]

I believe CGW and CZC specifically recommend their extended firing pins and reduced FP springs for use with lighter hammer springs for increased ignition reliability, be they in Shadows or Tac Sports'.

Edited November 12, 2020 by MoRivera

[Wormydog1724]

6 hours ago, WaJim said:

 

 

Top Fuel is now 1000 ft and Taladega has run restrictor plates for three decades for a reason. (RIP Bobby Allison)

 

To do nothing and chock it up to freak accident is No Bueno.

 

 

Since when is Bobby Allison dead?

Edited November 12, 2020 by Wormydog1724

[ima45dv8]

LISTEN UP!

 

I just removed a number of posts that were essentially 'food for lawyers'. 

Let's drop the speculative rhetoric that could be used to make a case in court. After all, how compelling would that be to a jury, since you're all "gun experts", right?

 

Knock that off. 

Please.