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CZ Shadows / TSOs not drop safe


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5 hours ago, dapribek said:

I’m from Western New York and for now the word is that the competitor was reloading during the stage, dropped his gun which went off and killed the RO. I just shot a match with the RO and his son a couple of weeks ago. Tragic. 

I heard a close but different version. CZ with hammer down shooter missed holster and dropped on the hammer on concrete gun went off and ......

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42 minutes ago, Sarge said:

 CZ with hammer down shooter missed holster and dropped on the hammer on concrete gun went off and ......

 

And that is why every CZ I own has a decocker and a firing pin block and why I won't own one without a firing pin block (aka any Shadow)

 

The hammer doesn't even have to touch the firing pin if the fall is hard enough.  Without a FPB, inertia is free to do its thing.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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Wow. As someone who ROs a lot, and often with shooters across the whole gamut, this makes me think long and hard about positioning and things outside my control. 
 

I’ll be covering this in my intro to competition classes now. There’s some safety things the rules don’t cover. Gonna spend time on those. 

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3 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

And that is why every CZ I own has a decocker and a firing pin block and why I won't own one without a firing pin block (aka any Shadow)

 

The hammer doesn't even have to touch the firing pin if the fall is hard enough.  Without a FPB, inertia is free to do its thing.

 

Lots of 1911/2011s out there with extended firing pins.  Could happen with one of those as well if dropped the right way.  Very sorry to hear this for all parties involved.

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This was brought up to me and I never realized this before. I didn’t realize there wasn’t a firing pin block and they weren’t drop safe. :(

 

I realize that’s old news to other people and doesn’t change their opinions, but I might start competing with something else. I’m not good enough for it to matter. 

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15 minutes ago, Carbine_Philosophy said:

This is horrible news. I'm truly sorry to hear about this, and it makes me a little worried as to the future of the sport.

I don’t think the future of the sport is in jeopardy. Been around since forever with only a small number of injuries or fatalities.

 I feel much safer at matches than I do at a public range. 

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10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I don’t think the future of the sport is in jeopardy. Been around since forever with only a small number of injuries or fatalities.

 I feel much safer at matches than I do at a public range. 

I can agree with feeling safer in a match than in the public range. If I seem like I'm worrying over nothing, I apologize, but this is the first time I hear about an incident like this happening since I've been following this sport and its disciplines.

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18 hours ago, Sarge said:

I heard a close but different version. CZ with hammer down shooter missed holster and dropped on the hammer on concrete gun went off and ......

 

This is exactly why i race the clock to get the firearm out of the holster, but take my sweet time to ensure its in, and secure before letting it go.

 

Prayers for the family on the deceased as well as the competitor, as im sure it weighs heavily on his mind.

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1 hour ago, outerlimits said:

If there is any truth to the story it was a cz without a firing pin block, I can see 1911/2011 working grip safeties becoming mandatory.

 

Grip safety doesn't do anything to prevent inertia firing if it's dropped.  Only way to do that is to block movement of the firing pin, like a Series 80 arrangement.  Extra long firing pins are a bad idea for exactly that reason.  They reduce the margin for error, as they are that much closer to the primer.

Edited by ltdmstr
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15 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

So you’re sure that if they are dropped that the firing pin will hit the primer (assuming there’s a round in the chamber) and the gun will fire?

 

I do not know the inner workings of the cz pistols, but this what has been suggested as what happened when the ro was shot in ny

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2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I do not know the inner workings of the cz pistols, but this what has been suggested as what happened when the ro was shot in ny

Really?  
 

 

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I heard the same and got thinking about it some. The extended pins and light FP springs might make this more of a issue. Making the guns super heavy in the grip area probably doesn't help either. More inertia as it falls, and I would think more likely to fall grip side down with some brass grips etc.

 

Also a 1911 or 2011 is probably subject to the same issue. But, people tend to run heavy FP springs in those to help. 

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Very, Very Sad! Condolences to both families.

 

I feel strongly about this. That is the double action production guns should be lowered to safe cock position (half cock). Why, because we are lowering these guns to a hot position, hammer resting on the firing pin. Also, while in the act of doing this you slip off the hammer and the trigger is fully depressed because it must be to lower the hammer all the way, the gun will fire with the persons hand back of the slide and the gun pointed hopefully, down range at a berm. Or if the gun is dropped for some reason, there is nothing to stop its firing should it land on the hammer. 

 

As far as I know all hammered firearms have the half cock. Rule on Double action: 8.1.2.2. Further, in App. D Special conditions: para: 2, gives the penalty for not fully de-cocking.

 

This issue should be corrected in the rules ASAP.

 

Also, pray that the gun owner did not alter the safeties on the gun for his or her sake.

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That is the reason why I do not own, nor will ever own, a CZ without a firing pin block.  The presumed ever so slightly better trigger pull that can be obtained from them is irrelevant to me when weighed against the risk.

 

Same goes for CZs without decockers since I do not use any handgun in single action.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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I had (erroneously) assumed that all modern production guns had appropriate drop safeties. It definitely makes me rethink my gun choice, especially if I introduce my kiddo to USPSA. 

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I realize this is the CZ part of the forum, but realize gentlemen that one of the most popular platforms in USPSA is the 2011, which is a series 70 design, hence no firing pin block (drop safety) and most competitors disable the grip safety.

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34 minutes ago, muncie21 said:

I realize this is the CZ part of the forum, but realize gentlemen that one of the most popular platforms in USPSA is the 2011, which is a series 70 design, hence no firing pin block (drop safety) and most competitors disable the grip safety.

 

Somebody got killed because a handgun fell and struck the ground in a way that let the firing pin forward fast enough to discharge a round.

 

In light of that, the popularity of certain handgun designs seems irrelevant.

 

 

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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This thread is pointed in the wrong direction.  A functional grip safety would not have prevented this tragic event.  I've witnessed a dropped gun, AD in a match.  Thankfully, no one was injured.  Accidents happen.

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4 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

This thread is pointed in the wrong direction.  A functional grip safety would not have prevented this tragic event.  I've witnessed a dropped gun, AD in a match.  Thankfully, no one was injured.  Accidents happen.

Agreed! This was a freak accident that had a million outcomes that would have been physically harmless. Sooo many stars had to align for this tragic outcome.

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