what / which .223 ar-15 dies?

[davsco]

brand spanking new to reloading, have the press (redding t7 turret) etc inbound.  first job is .223 for 2 & 3 gun out to ~500yds, going to try either 69g smk's or 53g vmax.  range pickup brass.  so i think i need a sizing / decapping die (full length size, small base) and then a bullet seating die (perhaps with built in micrometer).  just the two dies or perhaps a crimping or similar or other die?

 

die types and brand & model specifics greatly appreciated!  below are size/decap and seating dies i'm looking at.  yea or nay?

 

oh yeah, and please rec and find me some small rifle primers!!

 

749-005-328WB
Full Length Sizing Die 223 Rem (Small Base)

Mfr Part: 91323  redding

 

747-000-147WB
223 Remington Seater Die

Mfr Part: 11140  rcbs

Edited November 3, 2020 by davsco

[NOSHMJ]

RCBS makes a good set of Small base dies, it comes with 2 dies... sizing and seating.

[12glocks]

My die preference in order is Forster, Redding, Dillon, RCBS, Lee since you want to shoot out to 500.  I think 69, 75, ot 77 grain bullets only unless you are loading burner rounds.  The high BC bullets hold energy better, have less wind deflection and flash the targets more robustly.  I think Forster has a equivalent of small base dies, National Match maybe.  Use a case gauge to set up your sizing die so your rifle will run good.

 

I have nothing against Redding but Forster in a small company that answers the phone and all that.  Their stuff can be hard to get.

[RGA]

I agree with 12glocks.

 

Forster .223 FL dies produce the least neck run-out of all FL .223 I have (RCBS, LEE, Redding S-die, Mighty Armory and Dillon).

 

Had good results at 500 meters with Sierra 69MK's but even better with Hornady 75BTHP's and Sierra 77MK's when the wind is blowing.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by RGA

[Ben53]

I agree with RGA and 12glocks.  Forster are very fine dies.  You will probably want to segregate your brass for max accuracy.  Watch trim length.  Max velocity rarely is the most accurate.  Good luck and have fun!!

[davsco]

i don't even know what i'm talking about, but JP says to get a "small base" full length sizing die for use in their AR's.  Looking at forster's dies, I see no mention of small base.  Do I need small base, does Forster have small base, or what?  thanks!

[bigedp51]

In a semi-auto rifle the resized case body should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than its fired diameter. This allows the case to spring back from the chamber walls and extract reliably. So measure your fired and resized cases to determine if they are being reduced enough in diameter. Dies and chamber vary in size and the amount of brass spring back can vary also.

 

NOTE, I buy bulk once fired Lake City brass and size it the first time with a small base die. Thereafter my standard Forster .223 die works for my AR-15 rifle, BUT a standard die "might" not work for your rifle.

 

Example I have a standard Lee .223 die that will size the case body smaller than my RCBS small base die.

[NuJudge]

I use Redding dies for my Service Rifle ammunition, 200, 300 & 600 yards.  They have separate bushings that do the neck sizing on each case.  The seater die has a micrometer to set over all length, precisely.  If you have one lot of consistent necked brass, the bushing allows you to set neck ID by setting neck OD with the appropriate bushing:  https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/1018049443 

 

A Small Base size die sizes the case a little further toward the bottom of  the case.  This is not necessary for most rifles, but it is for some.  Some cartridge cases will need it more, for the same rifle.  I have loaded .30-'06 for many rifles since the 1970s and never needed a Small Base sizer for any brass in any .30-'06 rifle, until the CMP brought in the HXP brass from Greece.  

 

It sounds like you need to read about Small Base sizers, as well as other precision reloading concepts in a comprehensive reloading manual, or perhaps one specifically on loading .223.  I recommend this:  http://www.zediker.com/books/handloading/hlmain.html  

 

[bigedp51]

Below is for the .308/7.62 and Forster dies, small base dies reduce the case body diameter approimatly .003, and not just the very base of the case.

 

 

I would not use a bushing die for a AR15 rifle with larger military chambers. The more the neck is reduced in diameter the greater the chance of inducing neck runout. On top of this the Redding bushing die FAQ tells you if the neck thickness varies .002 or more to use a bushing a few thousandths smaller and use the expander to set the inside neck diameter.

 

Read the links below on bushing dies

 

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)

https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs

 

Bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers with neck turned brass. All my full length Forster dies produce less neck runout than my bushing dies in standard SAAMI chambers.

 

Below just a few of the .223 dies I have used and tested.

 

 

In the video below by the 6.5 Guys they tell you they get less neck runout with Forster dies vs Redding bushing dies.

 

 

 

Save $$ By Using Lake City 5.56x45mm Once-Fired GI Brass

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/10/save-by-using-lake-city-5-56x45mm-once-fired-gi-brass/

 

Accuracy Potential of Mil-Surp 5.56×45 Brass

 

So, how accurate can previously-fired GI surplus brass be in a good National Match AR-15? Well, here’s a data point from many years ago that might be of interest. A High Power shooter who wrote for the late Precision Shooting magazine took a Bill Wylde-built AR match rifle to a registered Benchrest match. His first 5-round group ever fired in a BR match was officially measured at 0.231″ at 200 hundred yards. This was fired in front of witnesses, while using a moving target backer that confirmed all five rounds were fired.

 

He recounted that his ammo was loaded progressively with factory 52gr match bullets and a spherical powder using mixed years of LC brass with no special preparation whatsoever. Obviously, this was “exceptional”. However, he had no difficulty obtaining consistent 0.5-0.6 MOA accuracy at 200 yards using LC brass and a generic “practice” load that was not tuned to his rifle.

Edited November 9, 2020 by bigedp51

[RGA]

8 hours ago, bigedp51 said:

Accuracy Potential of Mil-Surp 5.56×45 Brass

 

So, how accurate can previously-fired GI surplus brass be in a good National Match AR-15? Well, here’s a data point from many years ago that might be of interest. A High Power shooter who wrote for the late Precision Shooting magazine took a Bill Wylde-built AR match rifle to a registered Benchrest match. His first 5-round group ever fired in a BR match was officially measured at 0.231″ at 200 hundred yards. This was fired in front of witnesses, while using a moving target backer that confirmed all five rounds were fired.

 

He recounted that his ammo was loaded progressively with factory 52gr match bullets and a spherical powder using mixed years of LC brass with no special preparation whatsoever. Obviously, this was “exceptional”. However, he had no difficulty obtaining consistent 0.5-0.6 MOA accuracy at 200 yards using LC brass and a generic “practice” load that was not tuned to his rifle.

 

That brings back memories! "Black Magic" by John Feamster was one of the first books uncovering the potential of the AR15 platform halfway the 90's and was my bible and guide (together with the late Glen Zediker's "The competitive AR15" in the late 90's and "Handloading for competition" in the earlier 2000's) for many years after.

 

In your picture I see a Lee Collet (neck) die and that reminds me that I also experimented with one together with a Redding body die in a 2 step sizing process. The average results (neck run out) I saw were better than the other FL dies but not better than the Forster FL. What did you see?

 

FWIW, all my AR15 barrels have milspec 5.56 chambers and I never had to use a small base die over the last 27 years. Can't speak for custom or .223R chambers however.

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by RGA

[TonytheTiger]

13 hours ago, RGA said:

the late Glen Zediker

Huh, kinda wondered why I hadn't seen any new articles from him in a while.

[RGA]

13 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

Huh, kinda wondered why I hadn't seen any new articles from him in a while.

 

https://www.colemanfuneralhome.com/obituaries/Glen-Zediker/

 

A great loss for the shooting community, RIP Glen!

 

(sorry for going off topic)

[TonytheTiger]

Bummer.

[bigedp51]

RGA

I got the least neck runout using Forster full length dies, and the Lee collet die were OK but I saw no sense in sizing the case twice. Meaning using a Redding body die and a Lee collet die when I got the same results with the Forster die and sizing the case once.

 

As a side note I got the most neck runout using bushing dies. And I believe this is due to the amount the neck must be reduced in diameter in SAAMI chambers.

Bushing dies work best in custom tight neck chambers with neck turned brass.

 

Below the Forster full length dies have a high mounted floating expander. And the case neck is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. This means the expander can not pull the neck off center and induce neck runout and the Forster die produces very concentric cases.

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by bigedp51

[davsco]

with forster not seeming to have small base dies, i got the redding full resize small base die and their micrometer competition seating die.  do i also need a taper crimp die (again, use is jp ar-15 with 69g out to 500 yds, possibly also with 53-55g)?  playing around, i did resize/deprime, trim and chamfer, and seated a bullet (skipped primer and powder steps for time being) and seemed to go relatively good.

 

seems some die sets come with just two - size/deprime and seat, and others have three - incl taper crimp?

Edited November 15, 2020 by davsco

[RGA]

In some 2-dies sets de seater also has a crimp function. But in general you don't have to crimp .223R.

 

This is a very old trick, place the point of a loaded round against a hard surface and if you cannot push the bullet further into the case you don't need extra crimp.

 

About shooting 55 grainers at 500 yds, as long as the wind is not blowing results can be ok. Depending on what your requirments are.

[Boomstick303]

New to loading and processing 223 brass, was hoping to get an idea of how people are prepping then loading.  I have gathered some information from some on the board, but looking to expand my knowledge in general.

 

@bigedp51 can you give me part number for the Forster Die you use to size your .223?  I have been trying to figure out which die everyone is talking about, but Forster has a couple of different options.  From the research I have done Forster sizing Die seem like the one to go with, I just don't which one exactly.  Or are you using multiple Forster dies?

 

On 11/8/2020 at 5:31 PM, bigedp51 said:

NOTE, I buy bulk once fired Lake City brass and size it the first time with a small base die. Thereafter my standard Forster .223 die works for my AR-15 rifle, BUT a standard die "might" not work for your rifle.

 

From this quote if I understand it correct you use an undersize die then load.  After the initial reload you use the Forster 223 die then load the casing after the initial sizing using the small base die?  Does this mean you have two processing tool heads?

 

Is this the Forster sizing die you are using?

 

https://www.forsterproducts.com/product/full-length-sizing-dies/

 

If that is the die, I see that Forster offers machining the die to obtain a specific neck diameter.  When you purchase this die from other distributors, say a Midway or Brownells, etc. do they sell dies with a generally accepted neck diameter?  Is this what causes casing made with some dies not function is some rifles?

 

A little background I will not be sorting brass initially if I can help it.  It will be a mixed bag as the majority of my ammo will be for blasting close targets (mostly for gaming and going to to a max of 200 yds).  I figured once I learn to load correctly then I can order some Lake City brass and learn how to load some precision ammo for distance shooting. 

 

I will be using a Dillon 1050 with a RT1500 to process the 223 brass.  To my understanding the Carbide die that the trimmer connects to sizes and trims the case.  My question is would it make sense to install another sizing die like the Forster die to ensure I obtain consistent concentric cases that will have good neck tension.  It seems like the Forster die accomplishes both.  I would assume if you used a die like the Forster die before the Dillon RT1500 sizing/trimming die, that you would not see the same consistent results if you used the Forster die after the trimming station.  Am I incorrect in this assumption?

 

Sorry if the questions jump around a bit.  I have not loaded any 223 as of yet, only 9mm.  I am pretty confident loading 9 mm, and have next to zero issues with the ammo I load.  Looking to loading some rifle ammo now that I am comfortable with the pistol ammo.

 

Thank you in advance.

 

[HesedTech]

I have same setup. Be sure to case gauge your brass with good gauge (not those simple ones use a Dillon, Sheridan or Lyman to name three).

 

I have one AR with a really tight chamber. 
 

I found the trim die would not size range brass precise enough for that particular gun. I added second sizing die after the trimmer set up per Dillon instructions. Both the Dillon 223 and the RCBS small base die work great. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by HesedTech