Light primer strikes in CZ Shadow 2 with 11.5 hammer spring

[matto6]

I bought CGW's Ultra-Lite kit (54460) for my Shadow 2, and I'm getting light primer strikes on winchester primers (reloads).  This is with the extended firing pin and firing pin spring installed as well.

 

CGW said it's odd that I'm having trouble, as the 11.5 spring should work for winchester primers.  But they didn't have any recommendations other than to use the 13 pound spring.   

 

It seems weird that I'm the only one having this issue.  Is there anything else I can try without jumping up to a 13 pound spring?    I'm reading that primer seating depth can help, but I don't think I can adjust the depth on my Dillon 750.

 

I see that Ben Stoeger sells a 12 pound spring.   Maybe that's worth a try?

https://benstoegerproshop.com/cz-shadow-2-sp-01-hammer-main-spring-calibration-kit-by-cz-custom/

Edited November 2, 2020 by matto6

[KlausN]

I have one 75 S1 which works with a 11.5 and one SP01 needed a 13lb to reliably ignite ALL primers. You can try a 12 lb spring if you are after the last bit of DA reduction.  I also have one with the Apex hammer which needed a 12 lb spring to ignite all primers in DA, SA worked with a 11 lb.   it seems strange that soft primers don’t light with a 11.5 lb spring.  Springs are not high quality normally so you might gotten a “bad” spring. 
 

what is your DA pull weight when you pull as slow as possible?

Edited November 2, 2020 by KlausN

[teros135]

10 minutes ago, matto6 said:

I bought CGW's Ultra-Lite kit (54460) for my Shadow 2, and I'm getting light primer strikes on winchester primers (reloads).  This is with the extended firing pin and firing pin spring installed as well.

 

CGW said it's odd that I'm having trouble, as the 11.5 spring should work for winchester primers.  But they didn't have any recommendations other than to use the 13 pound spring.   

 

It seems weird that I'm the only one having this issue.  Is there anything else I can try without jumping up to a 13 pound spring?    I'm reading that primer seating depth can help, but I don't think I can adjust the depth on my Dillon 750.

 

I see that Ben Stoeger sells a 12 pound spring.   Maybe that's worth a try?

https://benstoegerproshop.com/cz-shadow-2-sp-01-hammer-main-spring-calibration-kit-by-cz-custom/

 

Keep an eye on that 13# CGW hammer spring.  My 11.5# spring measures 11.5# at 1.625", but the 13# (blue) spring weighs in at a hefty 16.8#, and it made for a very strong DA pull (8.5#, on a gun that had been about 6# with the 11.5 spring, IIRC).  

[rowdyb]

Unless you can seat your primers deeper your only option is to up the poundage of your main spring. Springs are cheap so try as many as you want. A spring tester is also really nice as well, but you can find what works just empirically.

[matto6]

1 hour ago, KlausN said:

what is your DA pull weight when you pull as slow as possible?

 

It varies from pull to pull, depending where I place the Lyman gauge, but it's usually just over 6 pounds.  One pull (very slow) I managed 5 lbs 12 oz.

I'm going to try this 12 pound spring from CZ custom
https://czcustom.com/cz-parts-all/cz-springs-all/cz-75-mainspring-hammer-spring/spring-main-hammer-12-lb-blue.html

EDIT:  They want $11.62 to ship a spring.  WTF

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by matto6

[KlausN]

I am not sure about your primer seating as I only use factory ammunition. Your pull weights are in line with a 11.5 lb spring. 
How does your FPS look?  Are you using the very light thin spring?  I recall some reports that a certain type failed pretty quickly.  
1. Primer type and depth

2. Hammer spring weight and nothing slowing dow the hammer fall

3. Firing pin spring , FP length and clean channel 

 

should be the main issues involved.  It is pretty frustrating but once you “collected “ many springs, you can always go back and change them.  Pretty sure most of us have a collection of hammer and recoil springs.
 

i had issues with a FP burr which needed to be removed once.  The burr “created” itself over time and created friction.

[matto6]

4 hours ago, teros135 said:

Keep an eye on that 13# CGW hammer spring.  My 11.5# spring measures 11.5# at 1.625", but the 13# (blue) spring weighs in at a hefty 16.8#, and it made for a very strong DA pull (8.5#, on a gun that had been about 6# with the 11.5 spring, IIRC).  

I just added the 13 pound spring and the DA pull is now about 7.5.   Tolerable, but a big jump up up from 6.

Does trimming the 13 pound spring down a bit work as a way to get an in between weight?

Edited November 2, 2020 by matto6

[teros135]

2 hours ago, matto6 said:

I just added the 13 pound spring and the DA pull is now about 7.5.   Tolerable, but a big jump up up from 6.

Does trimming the 13 pound spring down a bit work as a way to get an in between weight?

 

Cutting the spring gives you a tradeoff, shorter free length and a higher spring rate (pounds per inch).  So, you're compressing it less to the working height but at a higher rate.  It sort of balances itself out, but the net change might be a smaller force at the working height, which is what you're looking for.    Gotta watch out that you don't overstress the spring, though.  (Folks cut recoil springs to get less force, but you have more leeway with those. )

[Tanders]

Are you getting the light strikes on the double action pull, the single action pull, or both?  Also, how old is your firing pin spring?  The lightened Cajun springs are pretty thin, so I've found they wear out pretty quickly.

 

One other option is that you can throw a CGW reach reduction kit in there with a 13 lb spring.  It shortens up the double action throw a fair bit, so you can run a heavier mainspring without it feeling heavy.  This might be a happy compromise.

[matto6]

7 minutes ago, Tanders said:

Are you getting the light strikes on the double action pull, the single action pull, or both?  Also, how old is your firing pin spring?  The lightened Cajun springs are pretty thin, so I've found they wear out pretty quickly.

 

One other option is that you can throw a CGW reach reduction kit in there with a 13 lb spring.  It shortens up the double action throw a fair bit, so you can run a heavier mainspring without it feeling heavy.  This might be a happy compromise.

The CGW springs and firing pin are brand new.  The gun is new too - maybe 500 rounds through it.

I'm going to try a few more springs and see what happens.   The 13 pound spring isn't terrible.  A 12 might be just the right spot.

 

[GMP]

Maybe it just needs some break in and or polish.  Mine has all of the CGW stuff, full polish, and thousands of rounds through it now with the #11.5 main spring.  Even with the RRK which reduces the hammer travel, it lights everything except an occasional S&B primer which is to be expected.   My buddy just got a new optic ready S2 and while nice you can feel the difference some polishing and time shooting make.

[matto6]

Ahh, thanks.   I'll put in a heavier spring for now and try the 11.5 again after a few thousand rounds / dry firings.

[hal1955]

My factory S2 hammer spring scaled at 14#. I cut 4 coils off resulting in 5.5 # d/a and 2 # s/a. Then cut 3 coils of factory firing pin spring. No extended firing pin. It ignites everything i have tried including CCI  and S&B. 

[eerw]

Extended FP?

Reduced Power FP spring?

12# main spring?

seat primers deeper?

 

we got the first three items at CZC.

[matto6]

22 minutes ago, eerw said:

Extended FP?

Reduced Power FP spring?

12# main spring?

seat primers deeper?

 

we got the first three items at CZC.

 

1.  Yes (cgw)
2. Yes (cgw)

3. Just ordered your 12 pound spring yesterday (actually, the full hammer spring tuning kit)

Also - I just ordered a shadow 1 custom (91030) from you.  The web page says it comes with a 13 pound spring w/ 8-9 pound pull and you don't recommend going lower.  Is that true even if I'm using winchester primers?  Seems a lot stiffer than what I'm seeing with the Shadow 2.

Edited November 4, 2020 by matto6

[eerw]

We’ve found 13# to pretty foolproof for ammo that’s out there.

 

you can go lighter, but you’ll need to test it as you are finding out. 
 

I run our FP, springs and a lighter than 13# mainspring and my guns have shot anything I have tried.

 

 

[rowdyb]

I run the czc extended FP, 2075 fp spring, czc 10lb main spring, eg trs, czc recoil spring. Also czc hammer and disco.  

 

I load my own ammo and can light off small rifle w my 10lb spring.

[Mikemiller69gs]

FWIW - I have an 11.5lb in my SP01 along with the CGW Production kit. It will fire any off the shelf ammo except Winchester White Box. I have probably run 7/8 different brands through and only had one other round not fire (Federal Syntech - Action Pistol 150gr). I'll put that one down as a fluke as i've probably fired 1500 rounds of the Syntech with no issues. But with WWB, every 3-4 rounds would be a light strike.

[matto6]

Interesting.

Are winchester primers not softer than others like Remington and CCI?

[George16]

1 hour ago, matto6 said:

Interesting.

Are winchester primers not softer than others like Remington and CCI?

Yes, they’re softer than Remington and CCI.

[Mikemiller69gs]

I don't reload so I don't keep up on which primers are softer/harder etc. Out of the same WWB box the ammo ran flawless in my Walther, Kimber and My buddies Sig X Five. I just thought I would share my experience because the 11.5 lb spring helped my speed accuracy on the first shot

[Captiontom]

I had the same problem and with the 11.5lb spring in a shadow 1. I use mixed range brass and would occasionally have high primers. I upped my quality control but was still concerned with missing one. I ended up sticking to the 13lb mainspring and the light strikes went away.

 

The heavier spring only adds about 1.5lbs to your double action and half that to your single action. A light strike would cost me a second or more on a stage. 

[SGT_Schultz]

I'm going to offer a dissenting POV

 

Stop chasing the lightest ever possible DA pull.  Strengthen your hands, learn how to use locked joints in conjunction with a C clamp strong hand grip, and a 7 - 8 lb DA trigger is a non issue even for long partials.

 

Smoothness (lack of stacking and roughness) is far, far more important than overall pull force.

[rowdyb]

imho the gun also cycles nicer and you get nicer hammer speed with the main springs greater than 11.5 lbs

[Racinready300ex]

Make sure you really seat your primers.