Make ready / Unload and show clear habbits (logic vs mimicking)

[Sarge]

8 hours ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

The hammer dropped as in not being cocked. Not as in what the ro says 

The hammer has to be dropped by pulling the trigger, as in attempting to fire the gun. This is the final proof the gun is empty

[AverageJoeShooting]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

The hammer has to be dropped by pulling the trigger, as in attempting to fire the gun. This is the final proof the gun is empty

yes? i said that?

[Sarge]

41 minutes ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

yes? i said that?

At this point I have no idea what you said, or know

[BillChunn]

If the RO says "Slide forward" then I do exactly that.... One foot slides forward followed by the other foot.... but I'm still holding the gun pointed downrange with the slide held open so he can inspect the chamber....  and a grin on my face.... It's what I use to enforce the correct usage of the range commands.  If you don't know those commands then you're not a NROI certified Range Officer.... you're a timer holder.  Take a class.  You will end up being a better competitor.

 

As far as being the RO running the shooter and the competitor does the lightning fast unload and show clear, I politely say "Excuse me but I didn't get to say my lines" and I make them do it all over again.  Sorry not sorry.  Have seen two to many gunshot wounds during USPSA matches.... and yes I AM anal about safety on the range and feel that the standard commands must be used as a sign of professionalism. 

 

A long time ago, one of the competitors from this area of Michigan (who some of you old farts just might recognize) Jerry Barnhart taught that you should "admire your work over your sights" ie. check your targets before unloading.  That has always stuck with me.  But then again, I am an old fart....

 

BC

[ima45dv8]

I suspected I might be an old fart, but I guess my memories of the Burner prove it. 

[deerslayer]

On 11/22/2020 at 3:36 PM, MemphisMechanic said:

 

”not going to shove the timer up my gun’s ass and pick up the hammer drop.”

 

That’s pretty self explanatory. Many ‘timer holder guys’ at your local matches who aren’t experienced will have the timer close enough to your weapon to pick up the slide snapping closed or the click of the hammer falling.

 

(If you’ve ever wondered why a veteran RO might hold the timer behind his back, now you know.  )

 

He’s saying he deliberately speeds through a safe unload and show clear in order to get the hammer dropped before Mr Clueless Timer Guy adds three seconds to his time by walking up with the timer held too close.

 

@Ontos @Sarge I’ve seen it happen at a local twice, and my friend @deerslayer had 3.5 seconds added to his time this way at Arkansas State this year. It cost him either 2nd or 3rd place Overall in Limited, if I recall correctly.

 

 

It was MO Section, I got DQd at AR, lol.  Video of the stage clearly shows a raw time of about 11.50, but I received a 16.42 time.  RO clearly held the timer too close to my gun during ULSC.  Did some hillbilly math and figured I lost about 35 match points and second place.  Still not first, so whatever.  I discovered all this a couple days later when pondering why I lost that stage so badly.  It will probably take some practice, but I am going to try to form a habit of gently lowering the slide during ULSC.  The less noise I make, the better.  I am not a certified RO, but I do sometimes run the timer at local level 1 matches and always hold it behind my back when the shooter is finished.  

[Sarge]

3 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

 RO clearly held the timer too close to my gun. 

HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN WATCHING THE TIMER WHEN YOU FIRED YOUR LAST SHOT.
 

 

I do sometimes run the timer at local level 1 matches and always hold it behind my back when the shooter is finished.  

  THAT IS FINE AS LONG AS YOU TOO WATCH THE TIMER WHEN THEY FIRE THEIR LAST SHOT.

Hint: Capturing the time of last shot fired prevents nearly all time related errors 

[deerslayer]

16 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Hint: Capturing the time of last shot fired prevents nearly all time related errors 

 

Funny you say that, I do actually flip my wrist and kinda line up the timer with the gun so I can watch the gun and quickly glance at the timer as the last shot is fired or immediately after.  I make a quick mental note of "13 seconds" or "22 seconds" or whatever.  If the time is later determined to be something different, I know it's time to hit the review button.  I don't think I've ever heard anyone else even talk about this.  

[Sarge]

4 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

 

Funny you say that, I do actually flip my wrist and kinda line up the timer with the gun so I can watch the gun and quickly glance at the timer as the last shot is fired or immediately after.  I make a quick mental note of "13 seconds" or "22 seconds" or whatever.  If the time is later determined to be something different, I know it's time to hit the review button.  I don't think I've ever heard anyone else even talk about this.  

I tell every RO I can that is critical. Otherwise you actually have no idea what the correct time actually is. Like you, I catch a quick mental snapshot. Just enough so I'll know if it changed when I call out the time. I have sat in many RO seminars and the emphasis is always to get the timer out of the way after last shot. never mentioned to watch the time click over on last shot. I'm guessing it's because they don't want to take away the whole,"Keep your eyes on the gun", preaching point to brand new RO's.

[WaJim]

Anyone that has RO'd  PCC learns to watch the timer.

 

First couple of shots on any stage I run I'll check the timer quickly to see that its picking up shots. If its spotty then I know Ill have to get closer at the end of the run.

 

As far as being too close to the shooters gun at the finish? If you don't like how close I have to get to pick up 'last shot' then shorten your barrel.

 

Directly after COF I look quickly at the timer, show scoring over my shoulder the timer screen then say "ULSC" then "range is clear" then say the time out loud.

 

Every time.

 

Its not hard.

 

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

besides watching the timer out of the corner of my eye, another good habit that most good RO's have picked up in the last few years is to show the timer to the scorekeeper (and anyone else back there, like the video guy) as you are saying 'if you are finished...' . then even if the timer picks up some extraneous noise, you already saw the correct time, and the scorekeeper already saw the correct time.

 

oh. fine, I see WaJim just said the same thing. He is clearly an experienced RO.

[waktasz]

Also prevents any Don't +2 Me Bro moments

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Also prevents any Don't +2 Me Bro moments

that is exactly when it started to be a common thing.

[Joe4d]

I concur, by last shot you should know if the shooter is an idiot and needs to be watched like a hawk.. I ALWAYS watch timer for last shot,,, look at it,,,  show to score keeper, and have always asked score keepers say aloud time.

Like most things this is a double edge sword. Shooters can help by actually stopping and freezing when they are done.

Shooter stops and relaxes

RO glances at timer then issues IDULSC, while holding timer over shoulder... scorer should repeat time while I am clearing range.

These super cool dude speed unloaders deserve what they get far as I am concerned. IIRC only DQ's I ever issued at LII or LIII were these type of chuckle heads doing a speed unload rehoster.
News flash,, time stops at last shot.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Joe4d

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

only DQ's I ever issued at LII or LIII were these type of chuckle heads doing a speed unload rehoster.

News flash,, time stops at last shot.

 

Can you help this relatively new RO by pointing out which rule they broke, so I watch for that too?

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Can you help this relatively new RO by pointing out which rule they broke, so I watch for that too?

 

me too. I've only worked 5-ish nationals. I've never personally seen anyone dq while unloading, although I have heard of it. I've had to call 10 or so dq's at big matches, almost all egregious 180 breaks, but a couple AD's as well.

[Sarge]

13 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Can you help this relatively new RO by pointing out which rule they broke, so I watch for that too?

I had one at MRPC years ago. Running a guy who got the sequence out of order and rushed things. He racked slide THEN dropped mag. Pulled trigger and bang! Happened so fast I couldn’t react to save him from DQ.

  

 

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

I had one at MRPC years ago. Running a guy who got the sequence out of order and rushed things. He racked slide THEN dropped mag. Pulled trigger and bang! Happened so fast I couldn’t react to save him from DQ.

  

 

Gotcha. I thought he was talking about DQ for something else during ULSC

[Sarge]

39 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Gotcha. I thought he was talking about DQ for something else during ULSC

I have seen a few DQ’s for sweeping while doing flip and catch during ULSC. 

[ChuckS]

I had to send a gent home for an AD at the last level 3 match I worked. Slow down and pay attention to the friggin' gun!

[Thomas H]

16 hours ago, Joe4d said:

RO glances at timer then issues IDULSC, while holding timer over shoulder... scorer should repeat time while I am clearing range.

 

 

One minor note:  You generally do NOT want anyone else to say the time out loud until the range is clear and you have initially said it to the timer for official record.

 

The reason for that is that there is a circumstance in which the shooter may be offered a reshoot, but only IF they have not heard the time for the stage.  (Or know their hits.). Being in the habit of not having the tablet person say the time until you have officially done so precludes this from being an issue.  You are the one who knows if you are going to offer the reshoot, so if you have given the time, obviously it is okay.  But...sometimes you may have to ask the competitor a question before that point in time.  (8.6.4)

 

It is rare, but it does happen.

 

Agree with all the rest of it.  Having the timer in your peripheral vision during the last shot so that you can see the numbers change (and thus be certain you caught the last shot) and then glancing at the time (then putting the timer behind you so that the scoring RO can see it) prior to giving the ULSC command are all good practices.

 

Then having the scoring RO repeat back everything you say (time and scoring hits through the stage) to not only verify that they recorded correctly what you said, but that the shooter hears it clearly and KNOWS it has been recorded correctly--that helps, too.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

I have seen a few DQ’s for sweeping while doing flip and catch during ULSC. 

Still waiting for my first one of those too, even tho 90 percent of shooters flip and catch at the nationals I've worked.

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Still waiting for my first one of those too, even tho 90 percent of shooters flip and catch at the nationals I've worked.

Yeah I think it has become the norm. Brand new shooters who can’t clear malfunctions have the flip and catch perfected.

[ChuckS]

7 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Yeah I think it has become the norm. Brand new shooters who can’t clear malfunctions have the flip and catch perfected.

With the current value of primers being what it is, I may start also  

[nasty618]

47 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Brand new shooters who can’t clear malfunctions have the flip and catch perfected

At what point is it acceptable to start learning the flip and catch?  C class? B Class? Does one have to get a jersey with labels and a personal 10% discount code before or after they learn how to do this fancy move?