Make ready / Unload and show clear habbits (logic vs mimicking)

[Ontos]

On 10/28/2020 at 10:27 AM, louu said:

For me as long as I know I got everything I wanted I hurry it up because it's a 50/50 chance I'm going to get a good RO. Meaning not one that's practically going to shove the timer up my guns ass to try to pick up the hammer drop and add time. 

 

How to handle a timer is something that needs to be thoroughly taught at the RO class. 

 wut

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, Ontos said:

 wut

Double wut  

[Ontos]

3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Double wut  

I don’t think I’ve seen that... ever. Like not even have I heard about this happening. 

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, Ontos said:

 wut

 

”not going to shove the timer up my gun’s ass and pick up the hammer drop.”

 

That’s pretty self explanatory. Many ‘timer holder guys’ at your local matches who aren’t experienced will have the timer close enough to your weapon to pick up the slide snapping closed or the click of the hammer falling.

 

(If you’ve ever wondered why a veteran RO might hold the timer behind his back, now you know.  )

 

He’s saying he deliberately speeds through a safe unload and show clear in order to get the hammer dropped before Mr Clueless Timer Guy adds three seconds to his time by walking up with the timer held too close.

 

@Ontos @Sarge I’ve seen it happen at a local twice, and my friend @deerslayer had 3.5 seconds added to his time this way at Arkansas State this year. It cost him either 2nd or 3rd place Overall in Limited, if I recall correctly.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[Sarge]

9 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

”not going to shove the timer up my gun’s ass and pick up the hammer drop.”

 

That’s pretty self explanatory. Many ‘timer holder guys’ at your local matches who aren’t experienced will have the timer close enough to your weapon to pick up the slide snapping closed or the click of the hammer falling.

 

(If you’ve ever wondered why a veteran RO might hold the timer behind his back, now you know.  )

 

He’s saying he deliberately speeds through a safe unload and show clear in order to get the hammer dropped before Mr Clueless Timer Guy adds three seconds to his time by walking up with the timer held too close.

 

@Ontos @Sarge I’ve seen it happen at a local twice, and my friend @deerslayer had 3.5 seconds added to his time this way at Arkansas State this year. It cost him either 2nd or 3rd place Overall in Limited, if I recall correctly.

 

That is sad all the way around. I guess I am blessed to live in an area that literally half the people I shoot with are seasoned RO’s with many being CRO’s. If you are a weak RO around here you won’t work many matches.

[zzt]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@Ontos @Sarge I’ve seen it happen at a local twice, and my friend @deerslayer had 3.5 seconds added to his time this way at Arkansas State this year. It cost him either 2nd or 3rd place Overall in Limited, if I recall correctly.

 

I've never had that happen to me 'that I know of'.  Just two weeks ago I ran a stage in 'about' 24 seconds.  The RO was with me.  The scoring RO was off scoring targets.  They met up at the farthest targets.  When I got home and checked how I did on Practiscore, the time I was given for that stage was 59 seconds.  So someone bumped the timer before the scorer was given the time.  Since then, and from now on, I go up to the scorer and ask the time and HF.  If I suspect something is amiss I'll ask for a review.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I've never had that happen to me 'that I know of'.  Just two weeks ago I ran a stage in 'about' 24 seconds.  The RO was with me.  The scoring RO was off scoring targets.  They met up at the farthest targets.  When I got home and checked how I did on Practiscore, the time I was given for that stage was 59 seconds.  So someone bumped the timer before the scorer was given the time.  Since then, and from now on, I go up to the scorer and ask the time and HF.  If I suspect something is amiss I'll ask for a review.

More crappy RO’s! We often score ahead at locals with the Scoring RO scoring targets uprange of the shooter to save time. BUT everything stops when timer RO says range is clear and announces the time AND the scoring RO repeats the time. 
 I try to defend the RO corps but sounds to me like there are a ton of RO’s out there who don’t know one end of a timer from the other.

[waktasz]

On 10/30/2020 at 7:28 AM, AverageJoeShooting said:

personally i drop the mag and rack the last round out and then i just hold the slide open with my slide racker until the RO issues the slide/hammer/trigger command. I always make sure the Ro sees an empty chamber

 

The WHAT?

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, waktasz said:

 

The WHAT?

You know, the the thing.....

[MemphisMechanic]

13 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

The WHAT?

The thing you say before bellowing “RANGE IS SAFE!”

 

That thing.

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[AverageJoeShooting]

7 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

The WHAT?

what am i missing here? 

[ima45dv8]

1 hour ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

what am i missing here? 

 

That, "...the RO issues the slide/hammer/trigger command..." is in fact NOT one of the commands you should hear during a CoF.

 

8.3.7       “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” is.

[Blackstone45]

17 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

(If you’ve ever wondered why a veteran RO might hold the timer behind his back, now you know.  )

 

I always thought it was so that the scorer can see the time, but no reason why it can't be both!

[zzt]

13 hours ago, Sarge said:

More crappy RO’s! We often score ahead at locals with the Scoring RO scoring targets uprange of the shooter to save time. BUT everything stops when timer RO says range is clear and announces the time AND the scoring RO repeats the time. 
 I try to defend the RO corps but sounds to me like there are a ton of RO’s out there who don’t know one end of a timer from the other.

 

I may be wrong, but I think more often than not the offenders are not NROI trained 'official' ROs.  At least that's how it seems where I shoot.  It depends on the club.  At one club, I am often the only real RO in the squad.  That's a PITA, but I usually shoot with two buddies who know the rules as well as I do.  Either can run a shooter as well as a real RO.  At another club (who pays the entire fee for anyone wanting to become an RO) there are so many there are often 5 real ROs in a ten man squad.  Another club works it completely differently.  Everyone registers, but no one can squad.  Then all the certified ROs are invited to squad, and are expected to sprinkle themselves evenly among the squads.  If there is an imbalance the MD will move some.  Then everyone else is invited to squad in order of registration.  I'm staff at another club, so two of us always squad with the MD.  That way there are always at least two ROs when the MD has to be absent for one reason or another.

 

1 hour ago, ima45dv8 said:

 

That, "...the RO issues the slide/hammer/trigger command..." is in fact NOT one of the commands you should hear during a CoF.

 

8.3.7       “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” is.

 

Funny you should mention that.  Yesterday at an SCSA match the MD and RM harped on the use of correct range commands.  They had done so before, but they really went at it this time, TWICE.  Even so, some made up commands were used by non-ROs.

[Thomas H]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

I may be wrong, but I think more often than not the offenders are not NROI trained 'official' ROs. 

 

I really think that this is where the majority of the problems come from.  (Not all, unfortunately.  But most.)

 

That being said, if I'm the guy who just ran the stage, when I'm holding the gun out for the RO to tell me "hammer down, holster" if the timer is nearby I ask him to move it away from the gun.  (Had to do that at locals a couple of times with people who just took the RO class.  They understood, and it was a good learning moment.)  Haven't had that happen at a major yet, though I HAVE had a reshoot at a major when the RO extended the timer behind him to a) show the tablet RO and b) get it away from the gun when I dropped the slide, and in doing so managed to whack the tablet RO who was a little close, messing up the time and accidentally making him re-beep the timer.   (That was awhile back.  Hm.  What match was that?  It was several years ago...)

 

Once I'm done shooting, I take my time.  If I'm not going to fire another shot, I'm not in a hurry any more so I can take all the time I need.  If that includes asking the RO to do his job right (though using more polite terms) I'll do that, but I'm certainly not going to rush anything.

[AverageJoeShooting]

8 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

 

That, "...the RO issues the slide/hammer/trigger command..." is in fact NOT one of the commands you should hear during a CoF.

 

8.3.7       “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” is.

right...and in order to show clear you have to show the chamber which requires the slide back....to drop the hammer you have to depress the trigger unless you have a decocker which on an open gun you shouldnt...

 

seems like its splitting hairs here since 1 leads to the other and the end result is a clear chamber and a dropped hammer

[ima45dv8]

Aw, what the heck. You're right. Let's just ignore the rulebook and make stuff up as we go along. 

 

On second thought. . .no.

[AverageJoeShooting]

2 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

Aw, what the heck. You're right. Let's just ignore the rulebook and make stuff up as we go along. 

 

On second thought. . .no.

i mean the point is to show an empty chamber and a decocked hammer.  as long as everyone understands that is required in order to end the stage who cares who you get there?  I mean if i say "show me the thing, and press the thing" and everyone knows that means to show a clear weapon what does it matter how its said?  the end result is that the gun is made safe

 

obviously im using this as an example. but i mean i cant count the number of times ive heard "slide, hammer holster. everyone knows what that means. why split hairs and break an ROs balls by saying "thats the wrong phrasing, it should be if clear hammer holster"?  Theres already never enough actual ROs.

[zzt]

Joe, first off the rule book says you cannot touch the decocker to drop the hammer for ICHDH.  You must pull the trigger.

 

There is no good reason not to use the correct range commands.  If you are not a real RO, you've still heard the correct commands for an RO a thousand times.  So why not use them if you are running the shooter.  Consistent commands are a safety precaution, especially for newish shooters.

 

Yesterday at an SCSA match I was run on one stage by a non-RO.  He did fine until he got to If You Are....... and flubbed it.  He knows I'm an RO, so he told me - you know the rules, do what you are supposed to.  That might have been a disaster if he said that to either of the two new shooters on the squad.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

i mean the point is to show an empty chamber and hammer DROPPED. 
thats the wrong phrasing, it should be if clear hammer DOWN, holster"? 

Still can’t get it right.

As for just using any terminology because we all know what to do, that’s simply not true. At any given time 10% of the shooters at our locals can be brand new shooters who have no clue what steps to actually take when given the various range commands.

[regor]

1 hour ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

i mean the point is to show an empty chamber and a decocked hammer.  as long as everyone understands that is required in order to end the stage who cares who you get there?  I mean if i say "show me the thing, and press the thing" and everyone knows that means to show a clear weapon what does it matter how its said?  the end result is that the gun is made safe

 

obviously im using this as an example. but i mean i cant count the number of times ive heard "slide, hammer holster. everyone knows what that means. why split hairs and break an ROs balls by saying "thats the wrong phrasing, it should be if clear hammer holster"?  Theres already never enough actual ROs.

Not everyone who shoots USPSA speaks English as their native language, so having a common set of phrases that should be uniform at every range is important to make the sport more accessible. It’s more relevant to IPSC where you have many different countries under one banner, but the point is to have one common, simple set of phrases that everyone can know. The difference between “if clear, hammer down, and holster” and “slide, hammer, trigger” may seem minor to you, but it is not minor if you are not fluent in English. 

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

i mean the point is to show an empty chamber and a decocked hammer.  as long as everyone understands that is required in order to end the stage who cares who you get there?  I mean if i say "show me the thing, and press the thing" and everyone knows that means to show a clear weapon what does it matter how its said?  the end result is that the gun is made safe

 

obviously im using this as an example. but i mean i cant count the number of times ive heard "slide, hammer holster. everyone knows what that means. why split hairs and break an ROs balls by saying "thats the wrong phrasing, it should be if clear hammer holster"?  Theres already never enough actual ROs.

Standardized commands and phrases are the norm in the high risk occupation (the Navy) and activity (flying) that I've been involved in.  There are extremely good reasons for those standard procedures and commands and most of those reasons were written in someone's blood.

 

It's also a point of pride and professionalism to do things correctly.

Edited November 24, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[AverageJoeShooting]

 

3 hours ago, zzt said:

Joe, first off the rule book says you cannot touch the decocker to drop the hammer for ICHDH.  You must pull the trigger.

 

There is no good reason not to use the correct range commands.  If you are not a real RO, you've still heard the correct commands for an RO a thousand times.  So why not use them if you are running the shooter.  Consistent commands are a safety precaution, especially for newish shooters.

 

Yesterday at an SCSA match I was run on one stage by a non-RO.  He did fine until he got to If You Are....... and flubbed it.  He knows I'm an RO, so he told me - you know the rules, do what you are supposed to.  That might have been a disaster if he said that to either of the two new shooters on the squad.

I've never even owned a gun with a decocker. I've been shooting open for the past year and tbh the only time I've ever even held a gun with a decocker was when a 226 was issued to me for a previous job. Of course I wouldn't know the rules of using a decocker. 

[AverageJoeShooting]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Still can’t get it right.

As for just using any terminology because we all know what to do, that’s simply not true. At any given time 10% of the shooters at our locals can be brand new shooters who have no clue what steps to actually take when given the various range commands.

The hammer dropped as in not being cocked. Not as in what the ro says 

[AverageJoeShooting]

1 hour ago, regor said:

Not everyone who shoots USPSA speaks English as their native language, so having a common set of phrases that should be uniform at every range is important to make the sport more accessible. It’s more relevant to IPSC where you have many different countries under one banner, but the point is to have one common, simple set of phrases that everyone can know. The difference between “if clear, hammer down, and holster” and “slide, hammer, trigger” may seem minor to you, but it is not minor if you are not fluent in English. 

Point taken. Ive never had the experience of shooting with someone on the squad who was non English speaking