2020 Racegun nationals?....

[Whoops!]

7 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

If anyone thinks that the top shooters in this game don't want to shoot ALL of the points on EVERY stage they are gravely mistaken. At the top of the game all of the top shooters are running nearly identical stage times. The only way they can separate themselves from everyone else is by shooting more points then the next guy. This strategy for winning national titles has been deployed more often than not since this game was started back in the 70's.

Except for KC who somehow manages to do many stages two seconds faster than everyone else.  I’m still trying to figure out how he bends time.

[CHA-LEE]

2 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

Except for KC who somehow manages to do many stages two seconds faster than everyone else.  I’m still trying to figure out how he bends time.

 

Most shooters can usually finish stages faster when you sling lead in the general direction of targets and hits are optional. There is no magic to it. Look at his hit quality or lack of it and it tells the story clearly. If he gets lucky and hooks up then its a stage win nobody can touch. If he doesn't hook up then its a dumpster fire. You can't win a national title with dumpster fires.

[Whoops!]

4 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

Most shooters can usually finish stages faster when you sling lead in the general direction of targets and hits are optional. There is no magic to it. Look at his hit quality or lack of it and it tells the story clearly. If he gets lucky and hooks up then its a stage win nobody can touch. If he doesn't hook up then its a dumpster fire. You can't win a national title with dumpster fires.

I don’t think I’d call a consistent top finisher at every event he attends “lucky.” 

[CHA-LEE]

I am not saying KC isn't talented. He is. But his "Style" of shooting where hits are optional is exactly what keeps him from winning consistently. His "Style" of shooting also puts a higher priority on being fast which results in his stage times being faster in general. You wanted to know how he can produce stage times several seconds faster than most everyone else. I am providing the exact answer in how that is possible. You may not like that answer, but the facts are the facts.

[Whoops!]

Nah, It’s not that simple.  A lot of the top guys can’t cut off full seconds even if allowing for a mike or two.

 

Stage dependent of course.

 

It’s the stages with a lot of movement where KC makes the difference.

[MemphisMechanic]

5 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

Nah, It’s not that simple.  A lot of the top guys can’t cut off full seconds even if allowing for a mike or two.

 

Stage dependent of course.

 

It’s the stages with a lot of movement where KC makes the difference.

You’re debating with a veteran GM who has won several major matches,  and who spends some time squadded with these guys chasing on their heels in Limited.

 

Kindly share your own qualifications which back up your opposing viewpoint, because Charlie is talking sense.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[CHA-LEE]

1 minute ago, Whoops! said:

Nah, It’s not that simple.  A lot of the top guys can’t cut off full seconds even if allowing for a mike or two.

 

Stage dependent of course.

 

It’s the stages with a lot of movement where KC makes the difference.

 

And you know this about "A lot of the top guys.....bla bla bla bla" because you have tasked them with going full retard on a stage and seeing what the stage time ends up being? Or are you just guessing because they don't do it at majors because they know its not an effective way of winning matches?

 

The next time you attend a major match bring a stack of $100 dollar bills and challenge any of the top shooters to knock SECONDS off of their match stage run for $100. Then tell them that hits are optional as well. Be prepared to go broke buddy.

[Whoops!]

I think it’s pretty blatant ignorance to call what KC does as hits are optional.

 

But, I can easily beat any of Cha-Lees stage times with a functioning open gun.

 

What a limited guy doesn’t understand is open guys don’t leave full seconds on the table.

 

And I was just in a group convo with JJ yesterday about KC’s stage times.

 

So kindly see your disrespectful logic out, or I will meet it likewise.

[ChuckS]

Simple rule here: anymore personal stuff and this thread is closed.

[B_RAD]

36 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

Nah, It’s not that simple.  A lot of the top guys can’t cut off full seconds even if allowing for a mike or two.

 

Stage dependent of course.

 

It’s the stages with a lot of movement where KC makes the difference.

 

 

You'd be surprised on how much time is not gained by simply moving from point A to point B faster than the next guy. 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by B_RAD

[CHA-LEE]

48 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

I think it’s pretty blatant ignorance to call what KC does as hits are optional.

 

But, I can easily beat any of Cha-Lees stage times with a functioning open gun.

 

What a limited guy doesn’t understand is open guys don’t leave full seconds on the table.

 

And I was just in a group convo with JJ yesterday about KC’s stage times.

 

So kindly see your disrespectful logic out, or I will meet it likewise.

 

I will be attending several majors in Texas in 2021 (Dragons Cup, Henry's Cup, Texas Open). I accept your challenge.

[EEH]

I want to see the video with times.

although Whoops is no slouch , may be good challenge.

Edited October 26, 2020 by EEH

[Boomstick303]

13 minutes ago, EEH said:

I want to see the video with times.

 

I was thinking the same exact thing.

[MikeBurgess]

Oddly for all KCs ability to bend time he finished nationals 1.5 seconds faster than Christian. but shot 3% less points and had 2 extra Mikes. 

I think that at the club level most people say shoot for 90%+ of points and you will be fine but Charlie is correctly spelling out that that doesn't work at the top level of the game, and while 92% of points may seem pretty good, compared to Christian it doesn't work. In the end this game is Points/Time but the first thing is having enough points for the time to matter.  

 

An even better example is to look at limited,  Shane finished 7.12 seconds faster than Mason, and 8.16 faster than Browning, but once again accuracy is the difference.

Edited October 26, 2020 by MikeBurgess

[nasty618]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

You’re debating with a veteran GM

It's not like veteran GMs have not been wrong in the past or have not been replaced and left in the dust by A class guys.  But this argumentum ab auctoritate is what it is - a logical fallacy.  Or is debating veteran GMs not allowed anymore?  I am not saying either one of them is right or wrong, but it helps to keep an open mind and hear others' thoughts on the subject and if you know they're is wrong, ask the questions and let their answers sink their theories.

[regor]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

Oddly for all KCs ability to bend time he finished nationals 1.5 seconds faster than Christian. but shot 3% less points and had 2 extra Mikes. 

I think that at the club level most people say shoot for 90%+ of points and you will be fine but Charlie is correctly spelling out that that doesn't work at the top level of the game, and while 92% of points may seem pretty good, compared to Christian it doesn't work. In the end this game is Points/Time but the first thing is having enough points for the time to matter.  

 

An even better example is to look at limited,  Shane finished 7.12 seconds faster than Mason, and 8.16 faster than Browning, but once again accuracy is the difference.

 

Last year's Open nationals was a good example too. Christian was 13 seconds behind JJ but had better hits and only 1 M (vs 6). Looks like Christian closed the speed gap this year and kept the hits high to widen the overall gap a little. 

[Darqusoull13]

I mean, most everyone that's shot at matches KC is at has seen him do something "For the 'Gram" that's exceptionally high risk, low reward, super high cool factor. 

Example: 2019 Nationals in Utah where he jumped and tried to smash some targets in the air to avoid another position. I believe he was the only shooter that tried it, but it was his profile pic for a while and the video was hot fire in slow motion  I don't think that was the stage @CHA-LEE RO'ed that year but he might have seen him do the move? 

Christian is what happens when a high level athlete enters the sport and dedicates himself to the game. He's also entering his athletic prime and I'd guess everyone else will be shooting for 2nd place until he decides to slow down. 

[MikeyScuba]

The KC jump was awesome!  Inspired me to jump a horseshoe stage (IPSC) at an L2 in the summer.  Made the jump.  But like the 2 others who did it we got so obsessed with the jump we missed shots on the 2 popper activaters at the start......sigh

 

but it looked cool on fb when my wife edited the video to cut the misses on steel  

[Whoops!]

3 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

I will be attending several majors in Texas in 2021 (Dragons Cup, Henry's Cup, Texas Open). I accept your challenge.

 

I look forward to it.
 

It’s not fair with me shooting open though.  
 

I fully admit that.

 

 

 

It’s always risk versus reward based on skill, right?

 

KCs skill netted him a high number of stage wins this year and on the last day *he killed it.* (which at least one squad mate acknowledged)
 

And those weren’t easy stages the last day.

 

Stage 19 was the most complicated stage of the event and KC was the only sub 20 by a margin.

 

Thing is, he just didn’t perform as well the first day.  That happens with all athletes, especially when they hit 40.  
 

Here’s my theory based on which stages he was able to consistently pull ahead on and the way his gun was sounding while shooting compared to everyone else’s (my squad was next to his).

 

He sprints faster and starts shooting sooner coming out of the run.
 

I think he knows he needs to do that because maybe if he didn’t - he’d still be pulling a similar number of mikes and wouldn’t be as competitive.

 

Could this be wrong?  For sure.

 

But the AMU taught each of these guys to use their strengths whenever able.  I think that speed isn’t recklessness - it’s KC’s prime strength.

[motosapiens]

20 hours ago, Whoops! said:

 

What a limited guy doesn’t understand is open guys don’t leave full seconds on the table.

 

 

meh. i've been working and shooting nationals for years and watching alot of these guys. the ones that are winning are often not shooting all that fast, and imho, someone who shoots pretty deliberately (like christian) could easily take full seconds of his stage times, but he'd not only see more charlies (not really a big deal), but also more delta's and mikes, and those add up to multiple full seconds pretty darned quickly. At any rate, the strategy of shooting more accurately than the other top guys seems to be a pretty darned effective one based on the last few years of results.

[Whoops!]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

the ones that are winning are often not shooting all that fast, and imho, someone who shoots pretty deliberately (like christian) 

Lol

[motosapiens]

17 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

Lol

not sure what is funny about that. I've RO'd these guys for many years now. Some people shoot really fast. Some people shoot really efficiently and go one for one on steel, take an extra few hundredths of a second on harder shots, and rarely have to come back to targets for makeups. They don't *look* as fast, and they don't *sound* as fast, but they end up finishing the stage quickly and with good hits, and they seem to be more successful in the long term.

[MikeBurgess]

16 hours ago, Whoops! said:

 

 

KCs skill netted him a high number of stage wins this year and on the last day *he killed it.* (which at least one squad mate acknowledged)
 

 

First I'm not knocking KC by any measure, he is and will continue to be a great shooter who is both faster and more accurate than I will ever be.

 

But in conversation with a different division world champion, it was stated that stage wins are of zero value to him, he is there to win the match and the way you win matches is by shooting good enough and not messing up any stages bad. 

 

Basically the math is if I take this risk I can gain 5 match points on my competition but I risk loosing 20 points I'm not doing it unless I'm behind on the last stage and those points could win the match.

 

[shred]

Jerry Miculek used to call it the "passing lane".  You can push it and take a bigger risk to pass somebody, but you could also pull out into an oncoming truck.

 

[ampleworks]

Sailer ran away with it once again but the difference between 2/3/4 was the equivalent of one Mike and a No-Shoot....i.e. stupid close.