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Montana gold 9mm 124gr JHP with Titegroup. OAL?


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I've read other topics with this projectile / powder cartridge. 

 

I just got a case of these JHPs so my first time loading them. 

For my cz sp-01, I could NOT load this projectile longer than 1.07-1.08 and pass the plunk test.   1.08 will plunk 90% of the time.  1.07 will plunk 100% of the time. 

 

I've read other posts that are loading >1.10 , 1.15

My current load is Titegroup 4.1gr. 

 

Am I too short or still ok?  I know CZ's have a shorter "throat" as well so could this be normal or am I doing something wrong?  

 

Thanks for your time.

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Perfectly fine! I’ve run thousands of this bullet loaded to 1.095” over 3.9gr of titegroup. I’ve switched to n320 as it’s a little cleaner, but I’ll be back to titegroup when that runs out. 

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Per Ramshot:

"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”

It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.

The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.

This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as 

1) magazine length (space), 

2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel, 

3) ogive or profile of the projectile and 

4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.

 Always begin loading at the ‘Start Load.’"

 

Your COL (OAL) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.

Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel). 

Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL with that bullet. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood. After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.

 

You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.

Remove and inspect the round:

1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long

2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp

3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case

4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit

5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

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Update for those who are curious or who have the same conditions as mine:

 

I could not load these more than COL 1.07  in my CZ SP-01 AND P-01.   This felt so short to me. 

 

I loaded random range collected brass.  

 

After chrono. 

Loading with 4.1gr Titegroup I feel was too hot.  Signs of flattened primers in cases after firing.  with an avg of ~ 1150 fps

 

Loads with 3.7gr TG were much better. No over pressure signs on cases with an average of ~ 1040 fps.  Adequate for minor pf which is what I'm aiming for. 

 

Hope this helps anyone who searches for this in the future.  

 

Cheers everyone and thanks for your guys' input !

 

 

 

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I'm surprised that 4.1gr of Titegroup + 124gr JHP got you 1150 fps and flatten primers. I may be wrong but it sounds like you still have a problem.

Edited by 4n2t0
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I have two guns that allow the MG 124 JHP to feed and chamber properly at a COL of 1.150" and another that has to have a COL reduced to 1.120" to chamber fully so it depends on the pistol.   I also wonder why 4.1 gr of TiteGroup produces pressure signs for you as I run 4.4 gr with that bullet with no problems.

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If you compare his numbers, most of the rest of you are loading about .080 longer than he is. In the tests that I’ve done psi starts to change at around .040-.050. And we also don’t know what brass he’s using or tightness of his bore, so a decrease in charge could very well be needed. What the heck, if they shoot good you’ll get more loads per pound!

Edited by Farmer
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On 10/25/2020 at 9:48 AM, noylj said:

Per Ramshot:

"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”

It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.

The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.

This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as 

1) magazine length (space), 

2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel, 

3) ogive or profile of the projectile and 

4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.

 Always begin loading at the ‘Start Load.’"

 

Your COL (OAL) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.

Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel). 

Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL with that bullet. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood. After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.

 

You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.

Remove and inspect the round:

1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long

2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp

3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case

4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit

5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

Good stuff in this post.

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I loaded MG 124 JHP's to 1.175"OAL in a finish chamber reamed BarSto barrel in a G17L. But OAL is whatever it takes for the bullet shape. I've loaded 124 RN down to 1.060" OAL. The SAAMI value of 1.169" OAL is only a number. But in a Glock, anything over 1.180" OAL won't feed thru the mag.

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On 10/26/2020 at 4:15 PM, 4n2t0 said:

I'm surprised that 4.1gr of Titegroup + 124gr JHP got you 1150 fps and flatten primers. I may be wrong but it sounds like you still have a problem.

The most recent powder lot I opened for a Titegroup it was giving me the same fps. 

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I shoot that exact load in four different CZ pistols.  Three Shadow 1's and one non-Shadow SP-01.  COAL is 1.140" and average MV is 115 FPS.  Zero signs of pressure, and no functionality issues.  11 lb. recoil springs used in all pistols.

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On 10/25/2020 at 7:48 AM, noylj said:

Per Ramshot:

"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”

It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.

The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.

This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as 

1) magazine length (space), 

2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel, 

3) ogive or profile of the projectile and 

4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.

 Always begin loading at the ‘Start Load.’"

 

Your COL (OAL) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.

Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel). 

Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL with that bullet. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood. After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.

 

You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.

Remove and inspect the round:

1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long

2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp

3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case

4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit

5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster

Thanks for sharing, good information.

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